STAR WARS The Last Jedi *SPOILERS!*

[Somecrazyaussie]

Just posting, not reading entire thread. But I've been reading a lot of ppl complaining about the "Marvel humor". Wonder if this will finally be some catalyst for ppl to start hating Marvel movies for their awful, cheesy, unnecessary humor.

The humour was really needed in this. The Last Jedi is dark and depressing at times. With an incredibly high kill count (TFA had the highest, but those weren't shown onscreen as they are here with people getting vaporized/incinerated left and right.) Without some humour to break the tension, you'd walk out exhausted.

Marvel, for me anyway, is a different story. Ragnarok failed to generate any threat due to the fact everything was treated with flippancy and constant one-liners. I tried to watch GoTG Vol 2 recently and couldn't do it. That one was a joke. The sequence where they are jumping and showing Yondu and Rocket gurning went on for far too long. Ego and, "You are starting to piss me off!" *eye roll*

If Infinity War drops, and has the same approach as either Ragnarok or GoTG 2, then I will be peeved. That one needs to reign it in and at least treat Thanos with some level of seriousness. It is why Winter Soldier is my favourite Marvel film. It had a great balance.

[Carabas]

Another thing that i didn't like was that you have to read novels, comic books, and play video games to get most of testory. Ifeel that's unfair to general audiences. I'm a Star Wars fan so i kinda expected this, but it still leads a bad taste in my mouth, it's almost the equivalent of loot boxes, and DLC for films.

I have read none of the novels or comics and am not going anywhere near the slot machine that is Battlefront.

And I do not feel like I have an incomplete story.

Star Wars has always had this very sketchy rough strokes world building. Palpatine didn't even have a name in Return Of The Jedi. Well, he did, but only if you had read the novelisation.

[Punisher007]

Also what the heck is up with this out of nowhere idea that Rey wanted her parents to be “special” people? There was nothing whatsoever that established that before. In TFA, Rey’s simply wants her family back, it doesn't matter who they are. It’s not like she spent all of TFA hoping she was Han and Leia's daughter or Luke's.

That line in TLJ was clearly directed at the audience lol. Rian, going "meta" still needs to make sense in-context, which this didn't.

[brettc1]

Also what the heck is up with this out of nowhere idea that Rey wanted her parents to be “special” people? There was nothing whatsoever that established that before. In TFA, Rey’s simply wants her family back, it doesn't matter who they are. It’s not like she spent all of TFA hoping she was Han and Leia's daughter or Luke's.

That line in TLJ was clearly directed at the audience lol. Rian, going "meta" still needs to make sense in-context, which this didn't.

Everyone wants to believe that their parents are somebody special.

[Powertool]

My first reaction when I saw Star Wars VII was "Oh, no! These movies have become industrial products! Churned out in the thousands by an assembly line to be all the same!".

With Star Wars VIII my stance on this matter has officially shifted to "Oh, no! They're also very sh**ty industrial products!".

As far as I'm concerned, The Last Jedi has overtaken Attack of the Clones as the worst Star Wars movie ever produced, something I didn't think possible. And the worst part is that it's completely due to factors mostly unrelated to the direction process, since Rian Johnson does a serviceable job at trying to pull this steaming pile of Bantha dung together so that it may look like a film. But as Hitchcock used to teach, a good movie needs a good script to exist and maybe only Kubrick could have ever produced something worthwhile from the one written (and probaly altered in several places by executives... such is the way of Hollywood) by Mr. Johnson -- because he would have used 90% of it to light a fire and done his thing. Add to that nonsensical production choices and a terrible cast of characters and you have the perfect disaster.

Some scattered considerations:

- I've read and heard over the years many opinions about the Star Trek philosophy being sacrificed in favour of a Star Wars-like approach after the 2009 reboot. I must say that I was incredibly surprised to see that the main plot of The Last Jedi was something that wouldn't have felt out of place in a weekly episode of a Star Trek series. A desperate starship pursuit with the enemy possessing some piece of advanced technology that makes them apparently invincible and the heroes having issues with their faster-than-light travel? That's practically the bread and butter of ST! The only problem is that, if it had actually been an episode of Star Trek, it would've lasted little more than a fourth of the total run-time of The Last Jedi and we would have been able to see Kirk/Picard/Sisko being awesome or Janeway being a psycho b**ch or Archer being a disgrace to the Federation or Burnham being... the protagonist. Instead we got the classic critical situation that could have been avoided by just having the good guys talking to each other, which would have also prevented the Greatest Heroine The Galaxy Has Ever Known (what was her name, by the way?) being presented as the Rebellion's own Dolores Umbridge.

- The script... My God, the way these people talk. Even setting aside the issue of putting one-liners and in-jokes in the mouth of Star Wars Characters (I don't know what kept me from booing loudly at Finn's "Rebel scum" retort), how many friggin' times was the word "hope" uttered in this movie? Because it felt like twenty billion to me! Obsessing on some concept on a verbal level doesn't help drive a point home, not when the first rule of cinematography is "show, don't tell". This is The Last Airbender-level of inept writing!

- Leia flying. By far, the most cringe-worthy scene in a SW movie to date (the CGI didn't help in the slightest)... yes, even more than any scene featuring Padme and Anakin in the same room.

- Leia living (and therefore dying off-screen between episode VIII and IX) and Luke dying. All the original trinity gone in the most anti-climactic ways that could have been conceived. All for the sake of whom? The new cast? Pffft... give me a break.

- The incredibly well-directed scene featuring Yoda's ghost ultimately amounted to nothing, since Luke and Rey had no other interactions before the former's death. And speaking of the whole training, I just thought that the trailers were deceiving us by showing scenes that made it look like the one from Karate Kid. What a fool I was! Rey's "training" doesn't hold a candle to Daniel-San's! Possibly the greatest disappointment in an already abysmally disappointing flick.

- And speaking of Rey, she's just terrible all over. No charisma, no larger-than-life presence, no characteristics that make her even remotely relatable or intriguing... simply the worst. She's just the one who inexplicably does everything better than anybody else. Anakin Skywalker, the one who had been conceived by the Force and was trained since the age of 9 to its ways, gets his @$$ handed to him in two movies out of two that show him as a Jedi. When I heard Finn's first words after getting out of a coma being "Where's Rey?" I mentally switched "Rey" with "Poochie" and was reminded of some great lessons on how not to write protagonists.

-My God, what happened to SW aliens? Budget and technology issues may have prevented Lucas from putting many of them in prominent roles in the original trilogy, but characters like Chewbacca, Yoda, Jabba the Hutt and Admiral Ackbar were rightfully part of one of the most unforgettable casts in movie history. After the disappointment of Episode VII (Maz is to me what Jar Jar Binks is to many SW fans) I was hoping for something... anything on that front. INstead, who am I going to remember one month from now? That slug-faced X-Wing pilot with no relevance whatsoever? That goblin who confused BB-8 for a slot machine 300 times? Those Island nuns that look like rejected designs for Brian Henson's Dinosaurs?

- A friend of mine, a great fan of Star Wars, once said that the only way Snoke made any sense in the context of the new trilogy was if he had turned out to be Darth Plagueis under a new identity. When it came out that he was actually a lamer rehearsal of Darth Maul he was... less than pleased.

- Do you remember the red-clad Imperial Guards surrounding Palpatine when he reaches the second Death Star? How menacing did they look? Of course they had to create a modern, "cooler" version of them for this movie, so that the fight scene in the Throne Room could look like it was lifted from an Eighties' action movie with ninjas as the bad guy's minions (but without the Eighties' cheesiness that would have made it bearable).

- I remember Gwendolyn Christie hyping up Captain Phasma's "triumphal return" to the SW franchise after having survived the destruction of the Starkiller base (how????). My God, the nonsense that actors are forced to say by studios never ceases to amaze me. At least her character was coherent from one installment to the next: as useless as an @$$ without a hole.

- After Episode VII, I was genuinely concerned that this would have been a complete plagiarism of The Empire Strikes Back, only lame and with terrible characters. It ended up being a plagiarism, lame and with terrible characters, of both The Empire Strikes Back and The Return of the Jedi. Yay?

- I don't care what anyone says, Porgs are creepy as f*ck.

There would be much more to say about this trainwreck of a flick (like, what did the screenwriter smoke before writing the double bait-and-switch involving code-breakers or whatever they're called? Or why did every Star Destroyer get destroyed in the scene of the sacrifice of the Rebels' main ship, despite following very different paths than Snoke's vessel?) but it's really not worth the effort.

[AJBopp]

Maybe if it were a Metacritic score, but Rotten Tomatoes is a metric solely based on whether a critic likes or dislikes a movie.

Critics boil it down to like or dislike based on whether it was well-done or not (again, if they do their job properly - not all of them do), just like Siskel & Ebert used to do. Critics give a thumbs-up to plenty of movie they don't personally enjoy, because they appreciate that it's well-done. Audiences aren't so forgiving.

[Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.]

Just posting, not reading entire thread. But I've been reading a lot of ppl complaining about the "Marvel humor". Wonder if this will finally be some catalyst for ppl to start hating Marvel movies for their awful, cheesy, unnecessary humor.

I haven't read most of the thread either but "awfull, cheesy, unnecessary humor" existed in blockbusters for more than a decade before the "Marvel movies". I don't understand why some people consider it a Marvel thing.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

My first reaction when I saw Star Wars VII was "Oh, no! These movies have become industrial products! Churned out in the thousands by an assembly line to be all the same!".

With Star Wars VIII my stance on this matter has officially shifted to "Oh, no! They're also very sh**ty industrial products!".

As far as I'm concerned, The Last Jedi has overtaken Attack of the Clones as the worst Star Wars movie ever produced, something I didn't think possible. And the worst part is that it's completely due to factors mostly unrelated to the direction process, since Rian Johnson does a serviceable job at trying to pull this steaming pile of Bantha dung together so that it may look like a film. But as Hitchcock used to teach, a good movie needs a good script to exist and maybe only Kubrick could have ever produced something worthwhile from the one written (and probaly altered in several places by executives... such is the way of Hollywood) by Mr. Johnson -- because he would have used 90% of it to light a fire and done his thing. Add to that nonsensical production choices and a terrible cast of characters and you have the perfect disaster.

Some scattered considerations:

- I've read and heard over the years many opinions about the Star Trek philosophy being sacrificed in favour of a Star Wars-like approach after the 2009 reboot. I must say that I was incredibly surprised to see that the main plot of The Last Jedi was something that wouldn't have felt out of place in a weekly episode of a Star Trek series. A desperate starship pursuit with the enemy possessing some piece of advanced technology that makes them apparently invincible and the heroes having issues with their faster-than-light travel? That's practically the bread and butter of ST! The only problem is that, if it had actually been an episode of Star Trek, it would've lasted little more than a fourth of the total run-time of The Last Jedi and we would have been able to see Kirk/Picard/Sisko being awesome or Janeway being a psycho b**ch or Archer being a disgrace to the Federation or Burnham being... the protagonist. Instead we got the classic critical situation that could have been avoided by just having the good guys talking to each other, which would have also prevented the Greatest Heroine The Galaxy Has Ever Known (what was her name, by the way?) being presented as the Rebellion's own Dolores Umbridge.

- The script... My God, the way these people talk. Even setting aside the issue of putting one-liners and in-jokes in the mouth of Star Wars Characters (I don't know what kept me from booing loudly at Finn's "Rebel scum" retort), how many friggin' times was the word "hope" uttered in this movie? Because it felt like twenty billion to me! Obsessing on some concept on a verbal level doesn't help drive a point home, not when the first rule of cinematography is "show, don't tell". This is The Last Airbender-level of inept writing!

- Leia flying. By far, the most cringe-worthy scene in a SW movie to date (the CGI didn't help in the slightest)... yes, even more than any scene featuring Padme and Anakin in the same room.

- Leia living (and therefore dying off-screen between episode VIII and IX) and Luke dying. All the original trinity gone in the most anti-climactic ways that could have been conceived. All for the sake of whom? The new cast? Pffft... give me a break.

- The incredibly well-directed scene featuring Yoda's ghost ultimately amounted to nothing, since Luke and Rey had no other interactions before the former's death. And speaking of the whole training, I just thought that the trailers were deceiving us by showing scenes that made it look like the one from Karate Kid. What a fool I was! Rey's "training" doesn't hold a candle to Daniel-San's! Possibly the greatest disappointment in an already abysmally disappointing flick.

- And speaking of Rey, she's just terrible all over. No charisma, no larger-than-life presence, no characteristics that make her even remotely relatable or intriguing... simply the worst. She's just the one who inexplicably does everything better than anybody else. Anakin Skywalker, the one who had been conceived by the Force and was trained since the age of 9 to its ways, gets his @$$ handed to him in two movies out of two that show him as a Jedi. When I heard Finn's first words after getting out of a coma being "Where's Rey?" I mentally switched "Rey" with "Poochie" and was reminded of some great lessons on how not to write protagonists.

-My God, what happened to SW aliens? Budget and technology issues may have prevented Lucas from putting many of them in prominent roles in the original trilogy, but characters like Chewbacca, Yoda, Jabba the Hutt and Admiral Ackbar were rightfully part of one of the most unforgettable casts in movie history. After the disappointment of Episode VII (Maz is to me what Jar Jar Binks is to many SW fans) I was hoping for something... anything on that front. INstead, who am I going to remember one month from now? That slug-faced X-Wing pilot with no relevance whatsoever? That goblin who confused BB-8 for a slot machine 300 times? Those Island nuns that look like rejected designs for Brian Henson's Dinosaurs?

- A friend of mine, a great fan of Star Wars, once said that the only way Snoke made any sense in the context of the new trilogy was if he had turned out to be Darth Plagueis under a new identity. When it came out that he was actually a lamer rehearsal of Darth Maul he was... less than pleased.

- Do you remember the red-clad Imperial Guards surrounding Palpatine when he reaches the second Death Star? How menacing did they look? Of course they had to create a modern, "cooler" version of them for this movie, so that the fight scene in the Throne Room could look like it was lifted from an Eighties' action movie with ninjas as the bad guy's minions (but without the Eighties' cheesiness that would have made it bearable).

- I remember Gwendolyn Christie hyping up Captain Phasma's "triumphal return" to the SW franchise after having survived the destruction of the Starkiller base (how????). My God, the nonsense that actors are forced to say by studios never ceases to amaze me. At least her character was coherent from one installment to the next: as useless as an @$$ without a hole.

- After Episode VII, I was genuinely concerned that this would have been a complete plagiarism of The Empire Strikes Back, only lame and with terrible characters. It ended up being a plagiarism, lame and with terrible characters, of both The Empire Strikes Back and The Return of the Jedi. Yay?

- I don't care what anyone says, Porgs are creepy as f*ck.

There would be much more to say about this trainwreck of a flick (like, what did the screenwriter smoke before writing the double bait-and-switch involving code-breakers or whatever they're called? Or why did every Star Destroyer get destroyed in the scene of the sacrifice of the Rebels' main ship, despite following very different paths than Snoke's vessel?) but it's really not worth the effort.

Maz to me is NOTHING like Jar Jar Binks. Most if everything else you said i agree with. The lightspeed ram still looked cool, and Leia in space didn't bother me.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

I haven't read most of the thread either but "awfull, cheesy, unnecessary humor" existed in blockbusters for more than a decade before the "Marvel movies". I don't understand why some people consider it a Marvel thing.

Fair point, but i think it's more of a case of Marvel strangling their franchises with goofy as shit forced humor as a crutch (it being forced is a "Your Mileage May Vary" thing). Like they don't think a serious comicbook film will stand on it's own. Like Honest Trailers said it's ok Marvel, we can appreciate a ComicBook film without forced comedy.

[Soubhagya]

Just checked the Cinemascore. It is A. It is a good score. Audiences are liking it.

Its unfortunate that a section of fans are disliking it. Wish they could love it as i do. But that's the way it is. Films are subjective in nature.

[Forseti]

Maybe if it were a Metacritic score, but Rotten Tomatoes is a metric solely based on whether a critic likes or dislikes a movie. The reason why the RT became as popular as it has become is because it supposedly bridged the gap between the critic and the audience. Even though critics might assign a 6/10 for a film overall, that same movie can have a 92% RT score and this score is broadly seen to be more representative of what the public desires, ' a good time.'

Don't blame Rotten Tomatoes for their readers' inability to process all of the information they provide. Surely you realize that they also show the average critic rating normalized to x out of 10. (8.2 out of 10 for this movie, at the time I write this.)

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Just checked the Cinemascore. It is A. It is a good score. Audiences are liking it.

Its unfortunate that a section of fans are disliking it. Wish they could love it as i do. But that's the way it is. Films are subjective in nature.

General audiences liked BvS, and Suicide Squad too. It's the core audiences that tend to dissent or be divided.

[Soubhagya]

General audiences liked BvS, and Suicide Squad too. It's the core audiences that tend to dissent or be divided.

I agree that core audiences tend to be divided at times. Its not always. The Force Awakens was liked by all. Critics, fans and audiences in general. But this is what it looks like the case here.

However, i disagree about BvS and SS. BvS had a score of B. This is not good. Its weekend multiplier confirmed it. It earned about half of its lifetime earnings worldwide in its first weekend. SS had B+. Its of a more mixed nature. Better then BvS. But not by a lot. I doubt SS 2 will succeed as much as the first one. SS had an advantage of being the last big movie that summer.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

I agree that core audiences tend to be divided at times. Its not always. The Force Awakens was liked by all. Critics, fans and audiences in general. But this is what it looks like the case here.

However, i disagree about BvS and SS. BvS had a score of B. This is not good. Its weekend multiplier confirmed it. It earned about half of its lifetime earnings worldwide in its first weekend. SS had B+. Its of a more mixed nature. Better then BvS. But not by a lot. I doubt SS 2 will succeed as much as the first one. SS had an advantage of being the last big movie that summer.

It's not bad either, i think the goalpost moving in terms of films being good or bad is getting ridiculous. We're getting into the 8.8 territory of film reviews now. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ightPointEight

[Soubhagya]

Well it is about 4.25 now, same as Justice League. JL has 24k reviews.

Coco is the only solid 5 still on Fandango with 10K reviews.

JL shall not have score of 4.25 in my opinion. Converting it into percentage it stands at 85%. That's not what its weekend drops says. I loved JL. But i know that people in general did not like it. Coco also has a score of A+ in Cinemascore. In my opinion it has no crowd waiting to hate it by downvoting it or love it by upvoting it. Therefore, i think in its case Fandango and Cinemascore are looking similar. I am not sure about Fandango. Will have to look for more if its truly reliable or not. As of now i think the only audience score which is reliable is Cinemascore.