STAR WARS The Last Jedi *SPOILERS!*

[Godzilla2099]

Saw the movie tonight. Overall, I found it to be a big mess, although very entertaining.

I barely caught the last scene. Was that child who was sweeping at the end used the force to pull his broom?

The Good:

- The effects were great
- Action Scenes: This movie had zero boring parts to it
- Supergirl Leia: I liked the scene where she floated through space. She's the daughter of Anakin Skywalker and glad to see we saw some of her dad in her.
- Respect your elders: Glad to see the more experienced members made the right calls. Poe and Finn really messed up by disobeying orders. They almost destroyed the resistance as a result

The Bad:

- Luke: Mark did a fine job acting. Luke was completely out of character. Ep. IV He goes against odds taking a borderline impossible shot at the last second. Ep V. After convincing Yoda to train him, Luke drops everything to run into danger to save his friends. Ep VI. Even Ben was convinced Vader was a lost cause. Not Luke. He never gave up and kept hoping for the best. He was right. Now Ep VIII. Complete 180. Luke made Eeyore look like an extrovert and completely separates himself from everybody.

- Rey: Overpowered. A few lightsaber lessons and she's fighting off Snoke's Elite and saving Ben Solo's Life.

[Soubhagya]

they didnt continue the story the way sequels go.



1- the issue here was how this person randomly knows how to use the force without any training. People thought that the easiest way to explain this was parents but it turns out that this wasnt the answer.

2- Again, this is a sequel. A sequel continues a story and it should tell us what the story is. They didnt, they just drop stuff there because it's needs to be there. It's not even writing it just bullet points happening.

3- Yes we did. And that caused zero reaction from the republic? How are the FO a major power? How are there no fleets from all member planets being launched to destroy this enemy that they should not have ignored?



no, ths criticisms are more in the order that they dont have any overall arcs, it's just bullet points being throw out that dont really connect.

it looks like Disney really wanted to dump it all but they backed out and threw the OT people there out of fear and now we have this half sequel half new story that doesnt make sense.

I want to address the bold part. One does not need a lot of training in the Force to be a master. How long was Luke trained in the original trilogy? He spent a few days, at best a couple of weeks in Dagobah in Empire Strikes Back. When he returned to Yoda in ROTJ, Yoda told that he has learned all that is to learn. First film had a few hours training in Millenium Falcon. Mastering the force does not need years of training if we go back to the original trilogy.

Hard work is not truly needed to be in tune with the Force. No matter how much Han Solo tried he can't learn anything about the force in the practical sense. People are just born with connection to the force. And that connection is not necessarily of a hereditary nature. People with such connection are born at random throughout the galaxy whom Jedi used to find and bring to train.

And the Force works in mysterious ways. When darkness rises light rises to meet it. That's how balance is made to the force. In Empire Strikes Back, Luke managed to fight Darth Vader. That's not expected at all. One of the greatest warriors in the galaxy fighting a farm boy who is fighting with a lightsaber for the first time. He was trained a bit. But that training should be no match for Vader. Its the Force. Luke had wonderful abilities due to the Force. And he had that because Force chose Luke to be so powerful to match the rise of Darth Vader in order to bring balance to the Force.

[Buried Alien]

Re: Luke's accomplishments in the Original Trilogy being tossed aside. I disagree. I'm reminded of something poignant that President Obama said after the election last year: progress isn't always a straight line. It often zigzags. I think that was Luke's experience. He succeeded in not repeating his father Anakin's path, but not so much his old mentor Obi-Wan's.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[PyroTwilight]

Plus if we take Snoke's words for it, she and Kylo are quite literally the yin and yang of their side of the force. If one grows the other does as well. Which would be an amusing way to reference the original series. IE Darth Vader's balancing of the force makes it essentially impossible now for either side to actually unbalance it anymore on a cosmic scale.

I wouldn't be surprised if they ever do flashbacks with her and we see her tapping into the force as a child without being aware of it on Jakku.

[Godzilla2099]

I want to address the bold part. One does not need a lot of training in the Force to be a master. How long was Luke trained in the original trilogy? He spent a few days, at best a couple of weeks in Dagobah in Empire Strikes Back. When he returned to Yoda in ROTJ, Yoda told that he has learned all that is to learn. First film had a few hours training in Millenium Falcon. Mastering the force does not need years of training if we go back to the original trilogy.

Hard work is not truly needed to be in tune with the Force. No matter how much Han Solo tried he can't learn anything about the force in the practical sense. People are just born with connection to the force. And that connection is not necessarily of a hereditary nature. People with such connection are born at random throughout the galaxy whom Jedi used to find and bring to train.

And the Force works in mysterious ways. When darkness rises light rises to meet it. That's how balance is made to the force. In Empire Strikes Back, Luke managed to fight Darth Vader. That's not expected at all. One of the greatest warriors in the galaxy fighting a farm boy who is fighting with a lightsaber for the first time. He was trained a bit. But that training should be no match for Vader. Its the Force. Luke had wonderful abilities due to the Force. And he had that because Force chose Luke to be so powerful to match the rise of Darth Vader in order to bring balance to the Force.

I completely agree with Sighphi. At least with Luke, it was established several times that he was already an accomplished pilot, he received some training in the force, and his feats were light years less than Rey's

Rey on the other hand, hears the force is real. Not even hours later:

- Flies the Millenium Falcon against experienced TIE Fighter Pilots
- Resists Mind Probing from Kylo Ren
- Mind Controls the James Bond Storm Trooper
- Uses the Force to take Anakin's Saber from Kylo
- Never held a lightsaber before and beat Kylo in a sword fight.

[brettc1]

There's no valid argument in comparing Anakin or Luke to the rest of the Jedi. Anakin is the only known being in the galaxy to born directly from the influence of the Force. The rules are different for the Skywalker family. Both the original trilogy and the prequels made that abundantly clear. And it's precisely the reason that Star Wars is, itself, the Skywalker Saga.

As for indentured servitude and cult and all the rest of it, that's the product of overthinking the story. It's a space fantasy. If you start applying the rules of 21st century Earth to Star Wars (or Lord Of The Rings or Blade Runner or Conan or Cinderella) you'll always find excuses to be disappointed. Fantasy stories aren't meant to work that way.

Even in fantasy, or perhaps ESPECIALLY in fantasy, there are concepts of right and wrong. The Rebellion is good, the Empire is Evil. Rogue One greyed things up a bit but the fundamental principles remain.

Taking kids from their parents, even with the parents consent, FEELS wrong. As I said earlier, the first Jedi cannot have been trained like this. Training you grings must logically be a path that was decided on later, after the Order was established.

I am sure it seemed logical, and to the benefit of the many. But in terms of the story it has many problems. Not least of which is the killing of the Temple young kings by Anakin. That was a shark jumping moment for me, and I've never watched ROTS since that one time. You hack up a room full of six year olds with a sword to save your own child, you DONT fet to be redeemed for saving your own kid years later. That, to me, is utterly stupid!

Also, cold apprentices are not immune to the dark side either. As I said above Dooku went through that regime and he went dark. As did another Padawan in The Clone Wars. Meanwhile Luke began as a 20 year old and never faltered. It's no good to say it's because he was a Skywalker - Kylo is of the same bloodline and fell. Neither can it all be blamed on Snoaks, when Luke was tempted by both Vader and Palpatine.

[Soubhagya]

I completely agree with Sighphi. At least with Luke, it was established several times that he was already an accomplished pilot, he received some training in the force, and his feats were light years less than Rey's

Rey on the other hand, hears the force is real. Not even hours later:

- Flies the Millenium Falcon against experienced TIE Fighter Pilots
- Resists Mind Probing from Kylo Ren
- Mind Controls the James Bond Storm Trooper
- Uses the Force to take Anakin's Saber from Kylo
- Never held a lightsaber before and beat Kylo in a sword fight.

But abilities in the Force do not truly depend on training 'time'. Rey had fought for her whole life in Jakku. Remember the Force Awakens scene when some thugs tried to take away BB8 and she managed to beat them up with ease. She is a pretty good fighter.

Force abilities are not dependent on other training or abilities. Being a wonderful pilot has nothing to do with mastery of the Force. They are different things. She is made powerful by the Force in order to match the rise of Kylo Ren. If Dark Side of the Force becomes too powerful to bring balance you need a similarly powerful user of the light side. That's how the Force works.

But yes its true that Luke is light years ahead of Rey in regards to Force feats. The feat he managed in the last fight is beyond anyone has ever done. He managed to project himself across the galaxy. It was so real that he fooled everybody and managed to save the Rebellion from being annihilated. Kylo or Rey are nowhere near Luke's abilities with the Force. Emperor Snoke is also not a match to Luke. Though he was beyond Kylo or Rey. He was killed by deceit. Not by strength.

[bobellis75]

So do we believe Rey's parents are nobodies? Just curious as that felt like kind of a letdown as well. I feel like that's been a big question over the first couple sequels and then Kylo's like "yeah your parents are just scumbags." And she's like "Yeah, I guess."

[AnakinFlair]

Anybody else think this movie was going out of its way to address all of the things people complained about in the last movie?

* Who are Rey's parents? NOBODY

* Snoke looks ridiculous? KILL HIM

* Phasma was a wasted character? SHE GETS ONE FIGHT SCENE... and was wasted again.

Also, I know the last scene was meant to show the Rebellion rising, but unless they are recruiting 8 year olds, the entire Rebellion fit on the Falcon at the end. Then again, we still don't know how big the First Order is. Starkiller base and their entire(?) fleet was destroyed, so it's possible that all of the troops that landed in Crait were all that was left. And if that is the case, why AREN'T individual systems rising up and fighting them?

[Vanguard-01]

Re: Luke's accomplishments in the Original Trilogy being tossed aside. I disagree. I'm reminded of something poignant that President Obama said after the election last year: progress isn't always a straight line. It often zigzag. I think that was Luke's experience. He succeeded in not repeating his father Anakin's path, but not so much his old mentor Obi-Wan's.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Just got back from my second viewing, and I completely agree.

Luke's accomplishments are still valid and important. The Galaxy NEEDED Palpatine to be stopped. Countless people were suffering under the Empire's rule. Luke helped put a stop to that. As Brett said a few pages back: a generation of people grew up in a Galaxy free of Imperial rule. That's not nothing.

The rise of the First Order doesn't invalidate Luke's contributions to the Galaxy. He stopped an evil . He just didn't stop ALL evils. His victories still made a difference. Can you imagine what the Galaxy would've been like if Luke had stayed on Tatooine and the Rebellion had been crushed? Palpatine would've had another thirty-odd years to cement his grip on the Galaxy. If Snoke had arisen in such a time, he either would've gained a very prominent position of power within Palpatine's Empire, or he would've made a play to usurp Palpatine. Either could've been disastrous for the people of the Galaxy.

[Vanguard-01]

Even in fantasy, or perhaps ESPECIALLY in fantasy, there are concepts of right and wrong. The Rebellion is good, the Empire is Evil. Rogue One greyed things up a bit but the fundamental principles remain.

Taking kids from their parents, even with the parents consent, FEELS wrong. As I said earlier, the first Jedi cannot have been trained like this. Training you grings must logically be a path that was decided on later, after the Order was established.

I am sure it seemed logical, and to the benefit of the many. But in terms of the story it has many problems. Not least of which is the killing of the Temple young kings by Anakin. That was a shark jumping moment for me, and I've never watched ROTS since that one time. You hack up a room full of six year olds with a sword to save your own child, you DONT fet to be redeemed for saving your own kid years later. That, to me, is utterly stupid!

Also, cold apprentices are not immune to the dark side either. As I said above Dooku went through that regime and he went dark. As did another Padawan in The Clone Wars. Meanwhile Luke began as a 20 year old and never faltered. It's no good to say it's because he was a Skywalker - Kylo is of the same bloodline and fell. Neither can it all be blamed on Snoaks, when Luke was tempted by both Vader and Palpatine.

I've seen some very good arguments that the Jedi's habit of taking children from their parents may have actually been one of the things that was slowly stirring up resentment toward the Jedi Order among the people. Resentment that Palpatine was able to subtly feed as he moved his pieces into place. You'll note that there is very little evidence that the Galaxy really mourned the Jedi when they were destroyed?

I've read several books dealing with the Jedi's policies toward their "adoption' practices and they pretty much all agree that the policy was to approach a family with a Force-sensitive kid and ask them politely to give up the kid in the name of service to the Galaxy. If they say "Yes?" No problem. If they say "No?" Then they start invoking their legal authority to do so. If that doesn't work? They basically have the right to take the kid more or less by Force. Even if that only happens once in a while, just imagine the rumors and stories that would circulate about the Jedi. That's easily the kind of thing that can lead to a general resentment toward the Jedi.

[Zero Hunter]

I have let it simmer for a day or so, and honestly I am pretty disappointed with this movie. To me this is down in that Phantom Menace /Attack of the Clones area. The way characters like Snoke and Phasma were just jokes or Fin's entire storyline in the casino. It was just a mess of a movie. It gives me serious concerns about Rian Johnson getting his own trilogy after seeing this movie. There were just so many "are you fucking serious" moments in this movie and the more I think about the more it pisses me off.

If it was not for some cool space battles this movie would be my least favorite of all the Star Wars movies. It gets a C- from me.

[ZeroBG82]

Also, I know the last scene was meant to show the Rebellion rising, but unless they are recruiting 8 year olds, the entire Rebellion fit on the Falcon at the end. Then again, we still don't know how big the First Order is. Starkiller base and their entire(?) fleet was destroyed, so it's possible that all of the troops that landed in Crait were all that was left. And if that is the case, why AREN'T individual systems rising up and fighting them?

It's not that they have numbers or tech. They don't. The Resistance died aboard the transports that left the Raddus. But the Rebellion was reborn. The survivors of Crait will all have a story to tell, and as the final scene of the film shows us, there are a lot of disaffected, downtrodden people out there who can't wait to listen. The Last Stand of Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master is the story that will turn the good and just against the First Order once and for all, and motivate them to stand up and finally fight back.

Remember, the general populace of the Republic wanted desperately to ignore the FO and their threat. Until it finally, literally, blew up in their collective faces in the Hosnian system. Nobody can ignore them now, but the fear of them might have kept the population in check. Not anymore.

Real world analogy is always difficult. But this was a pretty clear Great War --> WW2 analog. Rising out of the ashes of the Empire, the galaxy on the whole wanted to avoid conflict. So they appeased the Space Nazis, and looked the other way. In this analogy, the Resistance would be the Allies finally taking a stand with Poland. And promptly getting curbstomped by the blitz, with everything including France falling. But then there was Dunkirk. An evacuation that never should have succeeded. Survivors given hope, inspired by the daring of both leaders who would take a stand, and the individual efforts of all the people who were heroes on the boats and the beaches. And Britain held. Against every expectation, Britain held. This was the Rebellion's Dunkirk. This was the moment where they proved hope can win. That darkness hasn't consumed everything yet. (Of course, the real turning points of WW2 came in the East, but we don't really have a Soviet analog here to grind the First Order army to paste in horrific weather and sheer, stubborn refusal to quit. But I digress.)

[Sighphi]

I want to address the bold part. One does not need a lot of training in the Force to be a master. How long was Luke trained in the original trilogy? He spent a few days, at best a couple of weeks in Dagobah in Empire Strikes Back. When he returned to Yoda in ROTJ, Yoda told that he has learned all that is to learn. First film had a few hours training in Millenium Falcon. Mastering the force does not need years of training if we go back to the original trilogy.

i didnt say anything about being a master i said she starts to actively use powers day one by herself. Luke wasnt a master by the end of the OT he just became a Jedi at most.

And you dont disprove anything said because even if he had 2 days training is still two days more than Rey who started beating trained people day one.

Hard work is not truly needed to be in tune with the Force. No matter how much Han Solo tried he can't learn anything about the force in the practical sense. People are just born with connection to the force. And that connection is not necessarily of a hereditary nature. People with such connection are born at random throughout the galaxy whom Jedi used to find and bring to train.

Didnt say anything about being force sensitive.

And the Force works in mysterious ways. When darkness rises light rises to meet it. That's how balance is made to the force. In Empire Strikes Back, Luke managed to fight Darth Vader. That's not expected at all. One of the greatest warriors in the galaxy fighting a farm boy who is fighting with a lightsaber for the first time. He was trained a bit. But that training should be no match for Vader. Its the Force. Luke had wonderful abilities due to the Force. And he had that because Force chose Luke to be so powerful to match the rise of Darth Vader in order to bring balance to the Force.

Luke got his ass kicked in ESB, at no point was he ahead in the fight. The whole fight was Vader testing him. Meanwhile with no training Rey resists and counters Ren with the mind probe, out force pulls him, and beat him in a fight.

At the beginning of ESB Luke had to calm himself and think about doing a force pull.

There's nothing in the writing of the OT that is going to come close to what we have seen so far in these 2 new movies when it comes to force use. If you are going to say, he barely got training it doesnt change the fact that he got training from 2 masters. Rey just started using the force. Like i said above, two days training is two days more than Rey.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I always felt like it was heavily impled that, between Empire and Jedi, Luke went back and completed his training with Yoda. Luke had his own lightsaber, had more force abilities, and went from not standing a chance against Vader to being close to an equal in their battle on the Death Star. And at best I think you would put Luke at the level of maybe a Jedi Knight. As powerful as Vader was, he was only a fraction of peak Anakin in Sith and Luke was never head and shoulders better than him. They were even until Luke lost it.

Also Luke in the first film learned a little bit about how to be in tune and feel out the force. That manifested itself once with him aiming his missiles in the Death Star's shaft (that sounds suggestive). Even at the beginning of Empire he struggled after being with the Rebellion for at least a few years doing even remedial things like using the force to retrieve a lightsaber that was just out of reach.

Anakin was supposed to be a prodigy and Rey is already at Knight level imo. It's stupid fast.