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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    I'm warming up to the idea that Rey's parents really should be nobodies, because it cements the age old trope (but truest in Ep. 4) that anybody can be a hero rather than the powerful legend (like Obi-Wan). The "I am Your Father" twist in Ep. 5 is iconic no doubt, but it removed Luke's rise from commoner-to-hero by making him genetically/hereditarily special, and since then ROTJ and the prequels were all about special parentage. If Rey's parents really are nobodies and Rey is one who rises to the occasion, its theme is then added on by that farmboy at the end of this movie with the Force Broom, and that what really the galaxy needs is hope moreso than hero figures.

    With the rest of the movie, I love Poe as a character and I think Oscar Isaac continues to do a bang up job, but I absolutely love that each and every one of his plans ended up either failing or making matters worse. Sure, the Admiral could have saved a lot of trouble by simply telling Poe her plan, but Poe being an ace pilot who needs to learn wisdom and humility sets up the great parallel where, like Luke is training Rey, Leia is training Poe to be her successor.

    But with that said, this movie is likely even bleaker than Empire Strikes Back since the other major plot in the movie -- Finn and Rose (YAY ROSE!)'s entire mission was a major bust, and really only made things worse. Good intentions really are nothing compared to the results. But it's okay for their plot to fail since it advanced both of their development.

    And that leads me to perhaps one of the biggest themes of the movie itself -- Problematic Faves. Rose considered Finn a legend. Leia depended on Finn to lead her forces. Kylo wanted to make Snoke -- his second dad -- happy. Rey sought the tutelage and help of Luke. Even further, both Luke onto himself (his own legend, rather) and young Kylo and Luke. And in each instance, the one who was held in high esteem greatly disappointed their biggest fan (yes, Flashback Luke right at that moment was ashamed of himself for even having to think of killing Kylo). But then how each storyline dealt with disappointment and recovery differed enough to show that there are different ways of coping (or not!) with failure -- Yoda's biggest point -- and how to proceed from there. Rey needs encouragement, whereas Kylo on the other end of the spectrum believes he's the best man to take over. In each case, from commoner to supremely powerful Force user, everyone gets humanized just a bit more.
    Last edited by Cyke; 12-15-2017 at 01:43 AM.

  2. #47
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    I think Kylo was telling the truth. They established that Rey had also sensed it through the force. And I think it was the best decision. Do we really want Luke to have abandoned his daughter to die on a desert planet? Or for Han and Leia to have done so? Is there any value in bringing the Jacen and Jaina fight from the awful Legacy of the Force series into the movies?

  3. #48
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    If it means the Skywalker Saga, as currently coined, does indeed end when all is said and done with a 3rd generation Skywalker as the main hero, then yeah, I'm more than fine with whatever excuse they want to make up as to why she was abandoned on Jakku. There's all the room in the world for the next trilogy to explore the universe with a focus completely disconnected from the Skywalker legacy with something completely new. I'm unconvinced however that this sequel trilogy wasn't meant to stay within that legacy one last time. Two more years of waiting but I'll still eat my hat if she's not Rey Skywalker.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-15-2017 at 01:53 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member Hiromi's Avatar
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    This is also by far the darkest of the movies, I mean in Empire they were on the run but ended up regrouping, in this near the entire Resistance is dead by the end and they've lost all their ships, to the point that of the several hundred they had at the beginning, the survivors at the end can all fit on board the Millennium Falcon, and their big distress call to their perceived allies is basically ignored.

    It still does end with a bright spot as they show that the story of Luke's final stand in the face of all that First Order firepower is spreading to the masses, so there's still some hope left.

  5. #50
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    I really enjoyed the film and have already seen it twice. I think people are just upset that Luke wasnt out there cutting people down with his green lightsaber (which is honestly in the submerged X-wing if he even had it after his nephew tried to kill him) and showing off his amazing force powers. Even Hamill said he initially didnt agree with where the character was headed but eventually came around. To me the way they set it up made sense. Luke instinctively going for his saber when he felt the darkness inside Ben seems natural and Ben being already bent to the darkside used this as an excuse to try to kill his master and uncle. Luke talking about himself becoming a legend and then trying to raise up another legendary Jedi in his nephew was a key statement. I didnt get it until the second time I watched it. But Adam Driver talked about him playing Ren as having this real entitlement thing where he knows he is the heir apparent to the legendary Skywalker legacy and that sort of drives him along. It all makes sense now with Luke explaining like he did. I feel like Luke got a real badass moment at the end of the film (he saves the day here) and of course I would have LOVED to have a live Luke in the next movie (dying then I guess because thats when Yoda dies and Obi Wan dies halfway through the first movie) but I understand them wanting to move on with new characters. Though like many others have said he will come back as a force ghost (who are FINALLY more powerful than you can possibly imagine). I also think Lukes death is particularly painful because we lost Carrie about a year ago in real life.

    My complaints are few but I didnt understand where in the galaxy far far away that Benicio Del Toros character learned about the Resistance plan to get to Crait. How did he have that information to sell? I did think Phasma should had made it to the next film. I was in stunned silence the first time I saw Leia blown out of that ship. I thought wow they just get rid of her right at the start huh. The whole space force thing was a little overdone but I cant hate on any scene with Carrie especially considering. I did like that they were able to show Leia being gifted with the force.

    I think thats pretty much it. Finally I dont understand the complaint that it makes the OT pointless. When Disney first started with Star Wars everyone was all up in arms about the EU being made Legends. I think its obvious that Ben and Rey are brother and sister. Kylo Ren was FOS and he knew it. Lies and deceit are his ways now no longer Ben Solo but Darth Caedus I mean Kylo Ren. So since I wasnt reading back then when that whole story line was published did people freak out about the OT not meaning anything because the darkside just rose again?

    Anyhow I enjoyed it thoroughly both times (the second time allowed me to pick out stuff I missed the first time) and am not ashamed to admit it. I do wonder what will happen with the next movie though because you could see them really setting up that movie to be Leia-centric (where she either made one last motherly push to reclaim Ben or lead the effort to end Kylo Ren) and I dont know how they pull that off now. Doing Leia in CG will stir up some stuff so I cant see them doing that but maybe who knows.

    Last edit: I am seeing that everyone believed Kylo Ren. Rey was the one to say "they were nobody" now that I think about it. Then Ren says youre nothing etc. It does seem like they try to sell them as siblings up until that moment. Im getting there. Id say by tomorrow Ill be 100% on board with it. It does fit in with the the overarching theme of the movie.

    Just wanted to throw a quick edit on this post after sleeping on the movie I agree that I believe Rey is really "nobody". It fits with everything so well. I was getting the sibling vibe from their force connection stuff but its now clear that all of that was Snoke manipulating them. Even the mirror in the darkside hole showed her two featureless people coming together to reveal Rey. Thats what her parents are just two faceless people in the crowd. That ties into what Luke was saying about the Jedi not owning the force and how the light wont ever die out. There will always be downtrodden people willing to risk everything to make a difference and that even these "nobodies" can be extremely powerful and influence events across the galaxy. I better stop. Honestly I could write about this film for days.
    Last edited by chaosfist; 12-15-2017 at 10:47 AM. Reason: spelling and formatting

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Wow! Honestly fans are complaining about this movie? I fail to understand this. I absolutely loved it! No complaints at all.

    Rey's parents being nobodies is what i always wanted. Star Wars universe is so huge. But the first six films was about just one family. Making it so small and even predictable. This is one reason i find the prequels so boring. This is much more aspirational. Freedom from the type of stories with the chosen one. One simply can't predict what is in store for the future.

    I can't believe its possibly darker then Empire Strikes Back. The victory was simply that they managed to escape. Its fantastic!


    I loved to see Master Yoda again. I was so happy to see him.

    Absolutely loved Luke Skywalker. He was not my favorite character in Star Wars. Maybe i would have to reconsider.

    My favorite moment in the film was Luke meeting Leia. My God i so wanted this. I was so disappointed to see that the trio never met again when Han Solo died. At least here these two met. Here is when i felt choked up. I won't be seeing Carrie again. Here's a goodbye.

    It ends so well. The trio's stories have effectively ended as we see a new beginning, with the kid signifying the new future for Star Wars. Absolutely loved it!

    Had someone not spoiled that Kylo killed Snoke i might have been completely surprised. I still enjoyed the scene a lot. It was all kinds of awesome and i was actually hoping that Ben and Rey would team up. Its excellent that they killed off Snoke. That's bold. Unpredictable. I loved it! (I am still angry with that troll. That would have been the most surprising twist for me).

    Loved the fact that the creatures are amazing but they are used to tell a story and not overshadow it. Has to be among the best use of new creatures. Porgs, Ice Foxes(or whatever their name was). The nuns in that island were great too. The racing animals were fantastic too. Vfx work has to be among the best. They shall nominate it for best Visual Effects. Its hard to believe that Snoke was a cgi character.

    At this moment one just does not know what's for Episode IX. Except for the fact that i am really stoked for it. And that too without knowing what to expect. That's the best kind of hype.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 12-15-2017 at 03:49 AM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bossace View Post
    Also why didn’t Vice Admiral Amilyn Holdo just tell her damn crew what her plan was instead of Risking a mutiny
    Yeah, and as I said a while earlier - if you know your on a suicide mission and light speed ram is a thing, why not just do it straight away?
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    I think Kylo was telling the truth. They established that Rey had also sensed it through the force. And I think it was the best decision. Do we really want Luke to have abandoned his daughter to die on a desert planet? Or for Han and Leia to have done so? Is there any value in bringing the Jacen and Jaina fight from the awful Legacy of the Force series into the movies?
    What we don't now understand, though, is why she heard Obi-Wan's voice in her TFA force dream. Why Obi-Wan?

    I was a bit disappointed they didnt use Ewen as a Kenobi force ghost.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Yeah, seriously. Why does ANYONE bother with engaging enemy ships with turbolasers and ion cannons if that's a valid tactic? If I had that option, I wouldn't even bother with a huge fleet of ships. I'd just build a bunch of mass drivers based on hyperdrive technology that launches rocks at my enemies at lightspeed. Total annihilation of any enemy at a fraction of the cost of maintaining a fleet.
    This.

    The move was spectacular no doubt, but it reminded me of something a rookie Dungeon Master lets his characters get away with. If light speed ram is a thing, then building capital ships is nothing short of stupid. Plus during the war with the Galactic Empire the rebels could have been destroying Star Destroyers with corvettes.

    This is sadly a case of writers getting excited with an idea based on real physics but not thinking it through in terms of the story you are telling. I doubt we will ever see this happen again because it is just too ridiculous to be a common occurence. People want fleet battles like we say in Rogue One, not ships being annihilated in seconds.

    Also, can someone please explain to Disney that dropping bombs in zero g just does not work. LOL
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Wow! Honestly fans are complaining about this movie? I fail to understand this.
    It's called critical thinking. It helps separate the meat from the meh.

    There were parts I enjoyed, but really the film wasn't that good overall. It's unfocused, moments of inane Marvel Studios humor, terrible CGI, atrocious fight choreography, the Porgs and the Nuns were crappy additions and the former only there to sell toys. Finn gets to do nothing but hide out with Eric Cartman's girlfriend. Po's rebellion-within-rebellion lead to nothing. They had two brilliant set-ups for writing Carrie out and were too chickenshit to do anything with either of them.

    Kylo and Rey's arc was about the best thing about the film and generally took the story in unconventional directions...but the tug of war they had with the lightsaber was silly.

    And how can someone force project holding dice?
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 12-15-2017 at 06:47 AM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    It's called critical thinking. It helps separate the meat from the meh.

    There were parts I enjoyed, but really the film wasn't that good overall. It's unfocused, moments of inane Marvel Studios humor, terrible CGI, the Porgs and the Nuns were crappy additions and the former only there to sell toys (way to buy into what they're selling). Finn gets to do nothing but hide out with Eric Cartman's girlfriend. Po's rebellion-within-rebellion lead to nothing. They had two brilliant set-ups for writing Carrie out and were too chickenshit to do anything with either of them.

    Kylo and Rey's story was about the best thing about the film and generally took the story in unconventional directions though.
    The complaints about the humour baffle me. Just going back to the OT...

    -C3P0 and R2 run across a hall through a barrage of laser fire
    - no, I don't like you either
    - the look han give 3PO when they first meet
    - let the Wookie win
    - she's rich
    - were fine, we're all fine now, thanks... How are you?
    - no reward is worth this
    - 3P0: may I ask a question sir? Han: why not?
    - mine, mine, or I'll help you not!
    - piett nods to some officers to remove Ozzels body
    - thank you, thank you very much!
    - and... A gift...Gift, what gift?
    - I'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of grandeur!
    - wait, I thought you were blind!
    - crying Rancor keepers
    - I'm sorry Captain Solo, but that just wouldn't be proper./ Proper!

    The OT had heaps of humour. Poe stalling Huxx was his Han in the Detention Block moment.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  12. #57
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    This.

    The move was spectacular no doubt, but it reminded me of something a rookie Dungeon Master lets his characters get away with. If light speed ram is a thing, then building capital ships is nothing short of stupid. Plus during the war with the Galactic Empire the rebels could have been destroying Star Destroyers with corvettes.

    This is sadly a case of writers getting excited with an idea based on real physics but not thinking it through in terms of the story you are telling. I doubt we will ever see this happen again because it is just too ridiculous to be a common occurence. People want fleet battles like we say in Rogue One, not ships being annihilated in seconds.

    Also, can someone please explain to Disney that dropping bombs in zero g just does not work. LOL
    Neither does banking and turning but they have been doing that since the first film.

  13. #58
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    Lets see here:

    -I hated what they did with Luke here. Basically he dies having failed at everything that he tried to do. He's also written way OOC here. And no, another FG situation is not near good enough to make up for that.

    -Rey was a freaking idiot here, and her dynamic with Kylo was cringe-inducing. And it's even worse if you figure how shortly after TFA this is meant to be taking place. And there's far less reason to care about their conflict now imo.

    -Rey's parents being nobodies would have been fine with me IF a. they hadn't ripped the Skywalker legacy apart completely, and b. they wouldn't have dragged out telling us that for so freaking long. As it stands, it feels like pointless secrecy, which is irritating.

    -I feel bad for John Boyega. He's the fanboy out of the new cast, he was the one trumpeting these films, and they gave him little to work with. At least in TFA he felt like he needed to be there. Here, it's like Rian Johnson couldn't be bothered much with him and so shoved him into some underwhelming subplot (heck even people that like the film overall have criticized his role in it), they drastically underplay his dynamic with Rey here, and he doesn't really accomplish much. Also I know quite a few Finn fans who HATED that last scene on Canto Bright. He feels superfluous here.

    -The Poe/Holdo conflict felt like a case of plot-induced stupidity on both sides. Oh and I hated the "slap" scene, so unnecessary.

    -Snoke went out like a punk, which was disappointing.

    -I felt like most of the deaths here felt really underwhelming. Only one really felt earned to me, and it wasn't the one that you'd expect. Han's death alone surpassed any here imo.

    -Benicio del Toro was wasted here. As was Gwendoline Christie.

    -Etc.

    I almost walked out of this, and the only reason that I didn't is that I've never walked out of a film early before and didn't want to give this movie the satisfaction of being my first one.

    Honestly I don't have much enthusiasm for Episode IX now.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    This.

    The move was spectacular no doubt, but it reminded me of something a rookie Dungeon Master lets his characters get away with. If light speed ram is a thing, then building capital ships is nothing short of stupid. Plus during the war with the Galactic Empire the rebels could have been destroying Star Destroyers with corvettes.
    Yep. A Corellian corvette costs a fraction of what a Star Destroyer costs. The Rebellion could've just bought a few hundred of them and decimated any Imperial fleet sent against them. Heck, a couple of corvettes in a lightspeed ram may have been enough to at least badly damage the Death Star!

    This is sadly a case of writers getting excited with an idea based on real physics but not thinking it through in terms of the story you are telling. I doubt we will ever see this happen again because it is just too ridiculous to be a common occurence. People want fleet battles like we say in Rogue One, not ships being annihilated in seconds.
    Yeah, the easiest way to disregard it is to just say it's actually not that easy to pull off. At that kind of speed, being just a degree or two off may mean you completely miss the mark.

    This is a concept that needs to be explained in any sci-fi setting in which FTL travel is a thing. Babylon 5 had a built-in excuse: B5 FTL involves traveling into another dimension entirely. You're not physically there to ram anyone. I think I remember someone explaining to me that Star Trek's warp drive can't be used in ramming attacks because of the subspace field the drive generates. But any sci-fi FTL drive in which the ship just physically rockets forward to extreme speeds? Yeah, it's an eternal question.

    Also, can someone please explain to Disney that dropping bombs in zero g just does not work. LOL
    You'll have to talk to George Lucas about that one. We first saw bombs being dropped in Empire Strikes Back. The Star Wars Universe runs on the premise of "If it resembles World War II combat, it's A-Okay!"
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    I think Kylo was telling the truth. They established that Rey had also sensed it through the force. And I think it was the best decision. Do we really want Luke to have abandoned his daughter to die on a desert planet? Or for Han and Leia to have done so? Is there any value in bringing the Jacen and Jaina fight from the awful Legacy of the Force series into the movies?
    I am very happy that Rey's not a Skywalker. Her being luke's daughter would have been too obvious, her being Han and Leia's daughter would have been too convoluted. Personally I would have preferred that she be Obi-Wan's granddaughter, but her being just a kid in tune with the force is pretty cool too, it reminds us that anyone can be a force sensitive, you don't have to be connected to a special family.

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