STAR WARS The Last Jedi *SPOILERS!*

[RikWriter]

Realism should never really be the goal in a Star Wars film, but if that is what we're going for, then you can't accurately depict any kind of resistance or rebel group without showing all of the factionalism and infighting that inevitably develops in these organizations. I mean, we all remember that skit about the People's Front of Judaea, and if you look throughout history there are countless examples of rebels, often on the brink of destruction, prioritizing internal power struggles over fighting the real enemy.

Squabbling and infighting would have been fine. Even Holdo being an idiot and a martinet was fine. The problem I had was that the movie was trying to paint her as a selfless hero for what she did. She wasn't being humble, though, wasn't avoiding being seen as a hero. She was withholding vital military information for no good reason. All it would have taken was a line, a single line, where Leia and Holdo discuss that they're worried about there being First Order moles or plants among them and they have to be careful what they say. Just that. Just something to give a reason for the seemingly unreasonable, and she could have been seen as a selfless hero. That's lazy writing, because the writers really wanted to keep the information from the audience.

[brettc1]

SW has never run by traditional rank/military orders. So using real world examples means very little in the context of this film. I and everyone that I saw it with came out of it saying what an incompetent Holdo was and how she got tons of people killed because she kept her plan secret from everyone for no good reason. And if Poe was such a hot-head and prone to going off half-cocked (that feels like another Rian Johnson retcon BTW), then that's even MORE reason to tell him about your plan. Or heck, just let him know that you have some kind of plan (even if you don't tell him the specifics) instead of acting like you don't have one at all.

Really this movie needed a better explanation for Holdo being so secretive. Also Leia waking up when she did and then the plan being revealed was one of the most groan-inducing cartoonish moments of the film as well.

Also Holdo's plan was stupid from the beginning since the FO people can just SEE the transports through those big freaking windows on their ships. They're that close, so Holdo's logic was flawed from the beginning.

No they can't see the ships.

The reason is obvious. Everybody on the whole is down on the hanger level watching the execution of a couple of infiltrators.

Then suddenly the hacker tells them there might be ships escaping. The code he gave them to find the fleeing transports read 'look out the window'.

[Soubhagya]

What leaders don't share is who gave which orders. They don't share this because it encourages people to complain about the leader who gave the order and question the chain of command. Every order is treated as if it came both directly from the person who gave it to you and, ultimately, from the Commander In Chief. But when it comes to operational plans, every detail necessary to be done by the unit giving the order is given. If I'm ordering an Infantry platoon to occupy an enemy airfield, for instance, I'd tell every single soldier not just what his part in the plan is, but what the ultimate objective of the move is, what our intelligence is about the area, who is providing fire support---artillery, air assets, naval gunfire, mortars, etc...---who is providing logistical support and what route they're taking to get it to us, who handles EPWs (Enemy Prisoners of War), what the chain of command is all the way up to the CIC... Just about everything that has to do the operation. The only things that wouldn't be shared would be sensitive, classified intelligence data like who our sources on the ground were or if satellites or spy planes were used to get the maps we're using. When it comes to the objective everyone is fighting for, though, you have to tell everyone.

I can see your point. It would appear moronic to you when your experience is almost the opposite. But then we can't expect every military organization to function in a similar manner. From the film's perspective we are not expecting realistic stuff. I have mentioned reasons of Holdo keeping the plan to herself. Its okay from her side. She does not need to share the plan immediately with Poe.

[brettc1]

Squabbling and infighting would have been fine. Even Holdo being an idiot and a martinet was fine. The problem I had was that the movie was trying to paint her as a selfless hero for what she did. She wasn't being humble, though, wasn't avoiding being seen as a hero. She was withholding vital military information for no good reason. All it would have taken was a line, a single line, where Leia and Holdo discuss that they're worried about there being First Order moles or plants among them and they have to be careful what they say. Just that. Just something to give a reason for the seemingly unreasonable, and she could have been seen as a selfless hero. That's lazy writing, because the writers really wanted to keep the information from the audience.

Yes, totally agree. Doubly so, since that should have been the very first thing they thought of as to how they were being tracked. It didn't matter that it wasn't the reason, it should have been mentioned because it was so obvious a solution.

That, in turn, would have given a reason for compartmentalizing information.

Gods, it so perfectly frakking obvious! I write for 1c a word for people and even I can bloody see it. How can a guy who writes for a major Hollywood studio not know this?

[Soubhagya]

Squabbling and infighting would have been fine. Even Holdo being an idiot and a martinet was fine. The problem I had was that the movie was trying to paint her as a selfless hero for what she did. She wasn't being humble, though, wasn't avoiding being seen as a hero. She was withholding vital military information for no good reason. All it would have taken was a line, a single line, where Leia and Holdo discuss that they're worried about there being First Order moles or plants among them and they have to be careful what they say. Just that. Just something to give a reason for the seemingly unreasonable, and she could have been seen as a selfless hero. That's lazy writing, because the writers really wanted to keep the information from the audience.

I won't disagree with you here. That would have worked just fine. But then it looks like they were not trying to show her being a good leader. And such a line would have showed that she is fine as a leader. All the time we were behind Poe. And some might have even thought of her as the bad guy working secretly for the First Order. I thought so myself. Then what came next simply surprised me all the way. It was awesome for me. To feed different expectations and upending them.

It fits into the themes of the film. About failures. Its not a stretch if you consider my reasons for her not sharing the plans with Poe right away. I don't really see an issue here. First meeting with Poe. Who was demoted and responsible for deaths of many. She had reasons. Furthermore, she had many hours. Why share the information right away? She could take her time to share it.

I wouldn't have minded so much if they hadn't been so cheerful about it in the end. They were making it sound like a victory when in fact it was a defeat caused by their own incompetence. At the end of the movie I had no confidence that any of these people could lead three sailors into a Singapore whorehouse much less lead a rebellion over the next 20 years.

They were not cheerful in the end. That's Leia trying to encourage Rey. As leaders often do in most difficult circumstances.

[ZeroBG82]

Squabbling and infighting would have been fine. Even Holdo being an idiot and a martinet was fine. The problem I had was that the movie was trying to paint her as a selfless hero for what she did. She wasn't being humble, though, wasn't avoiding being seen as a hero. She was withholding vital military information for no good reason. All it would have taken was a line, a single line, where Leia and Holdo discuss that they're worried about there being First Order moles or plants among them and they have to be careful what they say. Just that. Just something to give a reason for the seemingly unreasonable, and she could have been seen as a selfless hero. That's lazy writing, because the writers really wanted to keep the information from the audience.

I enjoyed this movie more than most seem to, think it was vitally necessary to Star Wars moving forward, and think people are grossly misrepresenting large sections of it to try and justify their feelings about a film that chose to be itself rather than what they wanted...

But this has the ring of truth. That entire section of the film, but most especially the stuff with Holdo and Poe, relies on it's characters being genuinely terrible at their jobs, and monumentally stupid to boot. In a film with some wonderfully nuanced portrayals and some daring story choices, it's the one truly shining example of genuinely lazy storytelling. This series of stupid drives the entire B plot of the film, which for Finn and Rose leads to some interesting and worthwhile character development (less so for Poe, who still gets some, but looks like a moron doing it) and they really should have put more effort into it.

[DrNewGod]

Bad writing by JJ Abrams?

Ha. After watching his Star Trek, I streamed the first season of Alias and concluded that Abrams does not write plots or stories. He writes cool scenes, and attempts to wire them together, with highly variable levels of consistency between them. It seems to me that with reboot properties, Abrams’ reflex is “look at the source, identify cool stuff, repeat but dial up past ‘11’, stitch together with whatever time is left.” So I’m not surprised that plot consistency seems weak in these sequels.

[Mia]

That was always a given. People turned out in droves for TFA because it was a sequel many had been waiting for. I remember talking with an a bloke while waiting in line at the midnight screening. He had brought his elderly dad out with him. Apparently, his dad had taken him to see Star Wars when it first came out. They had a tradition going for Empire and Return. So, they were determined to repeat the experience with TFA (they didn't watch the prequels until they were released on home video.) It wasn't the only case either that night. The masses had fond memories of the OT. Hence why it did big numbers.

TLJ has respectable figures. However the novelty has worn off. Something Disney ran the risk of doing by announcing there would be a Star Wars film each year from TFA onwards.

If TFA massive BO was due to the longevity between SW films and the fact that it was supposed to be a sequel to the OT then there was no way on earth that the TLJ would repeat those types of numbers. But most of the complaints I've read have to do with the fact that there's too much complexity and shades of grey in the character. Something I'm saddened by but not surprised given what I've seen for what passes as successful in US films and tv shows. Many of which lack depth and are borderline cartoons. I will be curious how the producers handle the next film. If they will stay the course and give us more of an in depth plot and fleshed out characters. Or if they will just capitulate and just make a live action video game with one dimensional characters.

[AJBopp]

You're both from the military. Lot of respect.

I am tending to agree with Tazirai as my limited experience suggests that leaders don't share everything. I am not from the military nor do i know any friend or family who are from that background. So, i can't say who is accurate here.

Military share what the plan is. They don't often share what the rationale for the plan is.

[Tazirai]

And so many people are trying to deflect criticism of this film by insisting it's political. There's nothing political about the plot holes and poor writing. It's simply not well written and not well plotted.

Star Wars as a hole isn't some complex thing like an HP Lovecraft story with layers on layers. You get that in the books and shows.
There will always be plotholes in every movie though.

Sorry, no, I was also military, my son is military, and most of my friends are also military and it's EXACTLY how the military works.
Op orders for any mission are disseminated down through the ranks in detail, and every soldier needs to know the battle plan in case they're the only one left to implement it.
So no, Holdo was 100% incorrect and so are you.

Dunno what units you served with. But that's not how the Air Force did things. The only times were told as a post was when a drill was upcoming, but even then the dates weren't announced for some of them. We ATC's and pilots, and some on the field possitions knew ahead about biohazard drills. We then ordered to not inform the masses on post as to not alarm everyone, until the brass knew what was up.

I'll agree that Holdo should have pulled Poe aside and told him that Leia had a plan in case of something like this. That was sloppy writing since Poe had such loyal people.

No need for me to watch it again. It's a bit hard to 'mis-quote' him or take it out of context tho. I'm wondering have you seen his candid interviews. He brings up a couple of points that many have been bringing up.

These guys are Rebels at heart, if they weren't the type to question authority they wouldn't be there at all.

Even in a fictional universe there's organization. Being Rebels just to rebel makes no sense. The American Revolutionaries were Rebels to us and traitors to the Crown. Our Rebellion had Chain of Command and Leadership.

Realism should never really be the goal in a Star Wars film, but if that is what we're going for, then you can't accurately depict any kind of resistance or rebel group without showing all of the factionalism and infighting that inevitably develops in these organizations. I mean, we all remember that skit about the People's Front of Judaea, and if you look throughout history there are countless examples of rebels, often on the brink of destruction, prioritizing internal power struggles over fighting the real enemy.

Agreed with this also. Many of the Guerilla movements in South America were crushed because of this.

[sunofdarkchild]

Why does the guy whose expertise is about piloting a fighter need to know the plan when all their fighters have been destroyed? Even if Poe hadn't been demoted and dismissed as a hothead, from a military point of view he has nothing to contribute at that point and is not sufficiently knowledgeable about the rest of their assets to be able to contribute to a reasonable plan. There is no reason to include him in discussions about strategy. Everyone who actually needed to know what Holdo was planning knew, including everyone who could contribute to it and the bridge crew.

[Agent Z]

Even in fantasy, or perhaps ESPECIALLY in fantasy, there are concepts of right and wrong. The Rebellion is good, the Empire is Evil. Rogue One greyed things up a bit but the fundamental principles remain.

Taking kids from their parents, even with the parents consent, FEELS wrong. As I said earlier, the first Jedi cannot have been trained like this. Training you grings must logically be a path that was decided on later, after the Order was established.

I am sure it seemed logical, and to the benefit of the many. But in terms of the story it has many problems. Not least of which is the killing of the Temple young kings by Anakin. That was a shark jumping moment for me, and I've never watched ROTS since that one time. You hack up a room full of six year olds with a sword to save your own child, you DONT fet to be redeemed for saving your own kid years later. That, to me, is utterly stupid!

Also, cold apprentices are not immune to the dark side either. As I said above Dooku went through that regime and he went dark. As did another Padawan in The Clone Wars. Meanwhile Luke began as a 20 year old and never faltered. It's no good to say it's because he was a Skywalker - Kylo is of the same bloodline and fell. Neither can it all be blamed on Snoaks, when Luke was tempted by both Vader and Palpatine.

Disregarding the point that redemption only matters if the person is evil - i.e. they need something to be redeemed from - in the original movies point Vader had killed numerous people unjustly and been party to the destruction of an entire planet.

The only difference in the "killing younglings" scene is that it's more viscerally emotional but in terms of pure deeds Vader did far, far worse just in the original trilogy.

[brettc1]

Weekend results

Last Jedi racked up $220M on opening, the 2nd biggest ever after Force Awakens at $247M. That means TLJ's performance on opening was about 90% as good TFA and much better than Rogue One.

However.

Second weekend box office has TLJ's money falling to $68M. A drop of 69%.

In real numbers Force Awakens made $149M. That means even though Last Jedi's 1st weekend box office was 90% of TFA, its 2nd weekend box office was only 50%!

Rogue One made $64M in its second weekend.

Which is why we now have articles like this...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain.../#682087dc18d8

Now, you can say this is because the novelty has worn off. But the fact is that Force Awakens made a LOT more money in its 2nd weekend only 2 years ago, so that would indicate the money IS out there. It's just that TLJ didn't get it from movie-goers.

Rogue One didn't either, but that movie didn't have the return of Luke Skywalker to the screen in a meaningful way for the first time in over 35 years, nor did it have the teaser two year prior to get people hyped up about it.

What might this mean? Well, maybe that while great critical reviews are helpful you still have to worry about word of mouth. Especially when so many mouths have gone to see the movie on opening for the giving of feedback. There is no doubt TLJ is already making a profit of Disney, but I am equally certain there will be some studio execs looking at these numbers and thinking their second weekend box office left about $66M at the table, or about $33M profit for the studio.

[ChaoticScholar]

I liked it, the mutiny felt out of place, but I don't get the mass freakout at all.

[Tazirai]

A) They promoted this like a damn Horror Film.
B) They spoiled the whole damn movie in the trailer? HAHAHA!