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  1. #721
    Mighty Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    The most common "criticism" I've seen of the movie is, "this is what I wanted/would have done."

    Which is straight up entitlement and standard Star Wars fandom critiques. I've even done it.

    No wonder George sold.

    It's so beloved that if you doing anything, there will be a section of the fan base that craps on it.


    There were some signs that this was part of the reason George decided to sell the company, along with Red Tails and Phantom Menace 3D tanking (although the 3D conversion probably wasn't too costly, I think it had a pretty huge marketing campaign) and him wanting to settle down with Mellody Hobson.
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  2. #722
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Basically the only thing I didn't care for was Luke going to Ahch-To die. Not the confrontation with Ben, which I see as nothing more than the act of a Jedi Master whom momentarily let fear, and thus the dark side, in before relenting. Both things completely in character with Luke Skywalker, and indeed something that's a threat to any Jedi Knight. But, after that, to me it would have been more in-character to try and fix the problem, not give up. TFA strongly hinted that Luke was hiding for a greater purpose, much like Obi-Wan and Yoda did. To me this would have been the better direction go off of. So yeah, I think Johnson screwed up there. But the bookends, the events that led to the ultimate fall of Ben and the Academy, and Luke's eventual sacrifice, I all think were just fine. Especially seeing as its pretty much a guarantee that Luke's story is not at all finished anyway.

    I have no problem with the fans who prefer a more idealistic take on his future, something like that which the original EU novels provided. But it certainly is not the only direction that these films were beholden to go in. The films chose something more tragic, more pathos-driven, and by and large I am fine with that. Again, just not what Johnson turned Luke's motivation to be sequestered into.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-12-2018 at 01:25 PM.
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  3. #723
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    My understanding was that he indeed was trying to fix the problem. It was the Jedi. Jedi were looked upon as great heroes and legends when they were gone by the people.

    But they couldn't stop the rise of Palpatine at the height of their powers. Their ways allowed the rise of Darth Vader who was actually trained by a Jedi, and as a Jedi. He himself trained Kylo and the students he took with him when he destroyed the temple. These evils Vader and Kylo pretty much came from them. While their ways were so ineffective that they could not check Palpatine. Yet they are looked as heroes and legends by the people in general.

    Luke wanted to stop that. By taking the Jedi out of the equation, the galaxy can solve its problems. Problems which often come out due to the Jedi themselves. That maybe the biggest sacrifice he could do. To send himself away for the benefit of others. To put it more simply, training new users in the Force, especially the powerful ones like Kylo and Anakin is endangering the galaxy.

    Thankfully, Yoda arrives and teaches him that apart from knowledge teachers have to pass on failure too. That is the greatest teacher. Interestingly, Yoda arrives after Rey has left. A call to action to be a teacher now? This along with his line 'See you around kid' to Kylo is indicating that he has some presence in Episode 9. He might be teaching Rey as a Force ghost. Yoda showed powers of lightening. Maybe the line i shall be more powerful when you strike me down will finally be explained a bit more. You are quite right. The signs indicate that Luke's role is far from finished in this story.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    In the context of the film, Luke's actions inspire hope across the galaxy and re-energize the Resistance movement. He's taken the burden of being seen as a mythological figure and turned it into an advantage in the service of his ideals.
    I will put in my two cents about this mythological figure. Isn't it cool that the villain of the story is defeated by Luke's projection which is so to speak a 'motion picture' of Luke? A film of Luke Skywalker handed the the bad guy his a**.

    It might not be as satisfying as actually beating up Kylo, to some people. But that 'often' is the way of the Jedi.

    “A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.” -Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back
    I think Rian Johnson may have gone a bit overboard in his glorifying and being faithful to the originals. Which is a good thing if you ask me.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 03-12-2018 at 08:42 PM.

  4. #724
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    Really, because he crapped all over it imo. Literally NOTHING that the OT built is left standing, nothing. He wasn't faithful to the originals at all, beyond shamelessly stealing things from other better movies.

    Luke dies a pathetic complete failure of a man, a coward, his entire life's work in ruins, and having done nothing to actually fix things. So thank you for that Rian, it was totally worth bringing him back after 30+ years for that (sarcasm).

    So call me "entitled" if you want, I will wear that marker with pride. I will not apologize for it for one single second. I refuse to accept the notion that you have to feel like anything that they choose to shovel your way must be "good" just because that's "where the choose to go with it." Nope, not buying it and never will.

    And in regards to "scapegoating" Rian, I don't. Actually, this is the first Rian film that I've genuinely disliked, so I have nothing against the man in principle. No, the people who I blame most for this, are Disney, LF, and Kathleen Kennedy. Because they are the ones who looked at what JJ wanted to do, what Rian wanted to do, what Lawrence Kasdan wanted to do, etc and went "yeah cool, that's great. Do it."
    Last edited by Punisher007; 03-13-2018 at 06:17 AM.

  5. #725
    Mighty Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Not exactly their fault. They weren't counting on Carrie Fisher's death, and Colin, Kennedy and others have stated that 9 would've been "her" movie. Although she had problems in the past, unfortunately she had a relapse or never quit in the first place.


    Even George Lucas has stated I think that if he planned to make sequels, ultimately it would end up with Leia in charge (As Harrison wanted out anyway and Luke was going to do his own thing seperate from the rebellion).
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 03-13-2018 at 06:37 AM.
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  6. #726
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    That doesn't change the fundamental "scorched earth" policy that they took here. I'm sorry, but here's an idea. You don't want to put yourselves in a position where the death of one of your older actors (and Carrie was one of the younger ones, so this being a possibility should have occurred to them at least once) messes with things, then don't undo everything that came before because you cannot think of a way to actually progress things without trying to rewind the clock back 40 years because, well the PT was controversial I guess.

    They brought this on themselves.

  7. #727
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Really, because he crapped all over it imo. Literally NOTHING that the OT built is left standing, nothing. He wasn't faithful to the originals at all, beyond shamelessly stealing things from other better movies.
    TFA did a lot more to tear down the originals than TLJ, what with the entire New Republic getting blown up and establishing that Luke's new Jedi Order was an abysmal failure, establishing Leia and Han being estranged, killing off Han, and introducing Ben Solo as one of the main villains...

    Luke dies a pathetic complete failure of a man, a coward, his entire life's work in ruins, and having done nothing to actually fix things. So thank you for that Rian, it was totally worth bringing him back after 30+ years for that (sarcasm).
    He dies living up to the legend and saving what is left of the Resistance.
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  8. #728
    Mighty Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think that's kind of one of the points of the final scene; Luke's "legend"-standing up to the walkers-is starting to spread across the galaxy and inspire people.

    I guess maybe following the OT, although the characters accomplished a lot some of their heroics have fallen into myth a bit, or been downplayed somewhat (Luke in particular is regarded as a myth by Rey, although the FO considers him very real and priority one). It's implied that Luke was kind of doing his own thing even shortly after ROTJ, sort of being a Jedi Indiana jones searching the galaxy for lost Jedi knowledge (The original novels also had him do this for a bit before he formed an academy) and sort of faded from public knowledge, instead of the sort of celebrity status he enjoyed in the original EU.
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  9. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    TFA did a lot more to tear down the originals than TLJ, what with the entire New Republic getting blown up and establishing that Luke's new Jedi Order was an abysmal failure, establishing Leia and Han being estranged, killing off Han, and introducing Ben Solo as one of the main villains...
    I've been saying this since I first started seeing this complaint. I had this problem over 2 years ago when I first saw The Force Awakens. The fact that The Last Jedi doesn't magically fix a problem inherent in the basic plot set up in the previous movie is not something I hold against the new movie. When I see these complaints I just question where everyone was 2 years ago.

  10. #730
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't think either film tore down much of anything. We just didn't witness the positives of what the heroes did in the originals because we jumped ahead. The heroes got a good two decades of an Empire-less galaxy because of what they did.
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  11. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Luke dies a pathetic complete failure of a man, a coward, his entire life's work in ruins, and having done nothing to actually fix things. So thank you for that Rian, it was totally worth bringing him back after 30+ years for that (sarcasm).
    Did you watch the final thirty minutes of the movie at all, or did you walk out before that?

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  12. #732
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    i saw it for the first time minutes ago...dont mind me. just needed to post this somewhere.
    i must say this was a depressing movie.. its the first time that i felt so down after watching a star wars movie (yes not even prequels didnt make me feel this bad). I just suddenly dont have any excitement for something i loved so much since i was a kid. even at its worst, ive been very forgiving and understanding towards the star wars franchise. but for the first time in my life im now not looking forward to any star wars movie.
    not gonna say im not going to watch any more star wars. but at this point i feel star wars is just another movie and nothing special unlike how it was before (at least for me)

    good day.

  13. #733
    Lv 67 Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Well, they did almost completely wipe out any serious opposition before Starkiller Base was bown up.
    I get that, but it just comes across to me that the First Order is more powerful than the Empire ever was, despite initially having less territorial holdings. The Death Star was built to maintain holdings the Empire already administered, Star Killer Base was always intended to be a tool for conquest. The First Order suffers another massive defeat in The Last Jedi too and I get the feeling that in episode 9 that won't matter either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Frankly speaking i am puzzled. Did we all watch the same film? Or different films were released in different countries. I generally put that to subjectivity of films. No film works for everybody. But when people say its worse then Prequels i find it really hard to believe. Prequels were all soulless affairs to me. They all looked good but i could feel nothing. I thought only the third one was any good. I used to wonder what is this big deal about Star Wars. After watching the originals i could understand. They are awesome even today.

    What is there to hate in the film? I have heard all complaints but nothing seems to stick. I seem to fight and disagree with everything. Every complaint is for something that i either liked or loved. I can't wait to watch it again. Let all those deleted scenes go to where they have come from. I can't wait to watch the film again. As soon as it would be available here i will get that.
    Well, I'm not really a Star Wars fan, but I've always felt a greater affinity towards the Prequels because it feels like a world you can role play in. In terms of film craft the OT is obviously superior, but that doesn't mean the Prequels do not have merits and they are hardly souless films, especially when compared to the new trilogy.
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  14. #734
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Well, I'm not really a Star Wars fan, but I've always felt a greater affinity towards the Prequels because it feels like a world you can role play in. In terms of film craft the OT is obviously superior, but that doesn't mean the Prequels do not have merits and they are hardly souless films, especially when compared to the new trilogy.
    Thanks for replying. I can see what you like about Prequels. On my side i can see that but don't care for that. There are some bright spots in the prequels. For example that pod race scene is pure cinema. I absolutely adore that. Or the Duel of the Fates. I actually think the final film is okay. They all look good. But i find them boring.

    On my side the new films are far far superior then Prequels. Interesting stories, characters and that familiar sense of adventure. A good mixture of the comedic with pathos and drama. But to each their own. Can anyone change one's experience while watching a film? That is one's own experience. And i appreciate that.

    I am looking at people who hated the prequels and hate the new films more. Its not a bad thing. As films are subjective. But its hard to believe. Prequels and the new films can't be more different to each other.

  15. #735
    Lv 67 Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Thanks for replying. I can see what you like about Prequels. On my side i can see that but don't care for that. There are some bright spots in the prequels. For example that pod race scene is pure cinema. I absolutely adore that. Or the Duel of the Fates. I actually think the final film is okay. They all look good. But i find them boring.

    On my side the new films are far far superior then Prequels. Interesting stories, characters and that familiar sense of adventure. A good mixture of the comedic with pathos and drama. But to each their own. Can anyone change one's experience while watching a film? That is one's own experience. And i appreciate that.

    I am looking at people who hated the prequels and hate the new films more. Its not a bad thing. As films are subjective. But its hard to believe. Prequels and the new films can't be more different to each other.
    Aesthetically they are pretty distinct though, the Prequels take place in a polished neo-Liberal paradise where as the OT takes place in rustic, barbaric future under late stage capitalism. The new trilogy lacks its own unique aesthetic, its the OT for the most part, but a bit darker and, whatever reason, I like the Prequel stuff more than the OT. Whenever I see AT-ATs, Tie-Fighters, X-Wings, I just kind of shrug with disinterest.

    I don't think any reasonable person should loath The Last Jedi though.
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