Star Wars The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

[SuperiorIronman]

You forgot the big one, which seems to be why so many people hold up RotS as the "best" of the PT but one of the primary reasons (though there are many others) I just can't stand it: "Vader hunted down and murdered the Jedi."

No he didn't. A bunch of otherwise fairly incompetent clone troopers did that rather easily under order 66. Anny killed a school full of children and got carved to literal pieces by the one adult Jedi he faced. IMO a more interesting movie is Anakin being tricked/seduced into becoming Vader *MUCH* earlier and actually hunting down and murdering some fellow Jedi knights/masters before being stopped by Obi-Wan (allowing for some murder-mystery elements), while Yoda tries, and fails, to prevent Palpatine from killing all the younglings at the Jedi temple, and goes into seclusion afterwards because of this failure, rather than just giving up because the soon-to-be Emperor didn't just roll over for him in their fight.

How exactly was Anakin personally supposed to go around the galaxy killing what may be thousands of Jedi on active battlefields? Vader did march on the temple and we know he was responsible for killing Jedi there. Of course not all of them, that would be ridiculous, but we know he has a body count not limited to the kids due to what Kenobi and Yoda walk in on the aftermath of, and the holo Obi-wan looks at later. I think you missed the holo because we actually do watch him strike down a Jedi before he deals with the other two, one of which is a Jedi master. No sounds of blasters are on the holo so it's reasonable to assume Anakin struck down the three of them. As an aside he actually is chocking one to death as he's fighting Cin-drallig with one arm.

Yoda also wasn't enough for Sidious. They are evenly matched throughout the fight, and not only did Yoda take a real big fall and lose his lightsaber in the process, Palpatine also has an entire army which we know had been present or showed up shortly after. Yoda simply wasn't getting anywhere in the fight.

[ChrisIII]

The actual line is "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights." He didn't do it alone.

Plus there's still a nearly twenty-year gap between the films where Vader could also have hunted other Jedi in hiding. (The new Darth Vader comic and the Rebels cartoon have shown some of this in the new canon as well).

There's also a deleted scene from ROTS that shows Anakin sneaking up behind Shaak Ti (The Jedi master who is the same species as Anakin's "Clone Wars" padawan)and killing her via lightsaber. Another deleted scene featuring a similar death-but at General Grevious's hands and earlier in the movie-was on the DVD.


I think both are available on the DVDs/Blu-ray (The DVD version is Grevious's, the Anakin/Vader version on blu-ray I think). It also leads into the shot in the trailer of Anakin walking down a corridor.


Another interesting note is that the dialogue in ANH seems to imply Anakin is still a Padawan ("When I left you I was but the learner") although it's pretty clear he's a knight in ROTS (Mainly referring to Obi-Wan as "Master" as a sign of respect, much like Obi-Wan does to the other Masters).

[Carabas]

There's also a deleted scene from ROTS that shows Anakin sneaking up behind Shaak Ti (The Jedi master who is the same species as Anakin's "Clone Wars" padawan)and killing her via lightsaber. Another deleted scene featuring a similar death-but at General Grevious's hands and earlier in the movie-was on the DVD.

She also died in The Force Unleashed game/book/comic. Damn, Lucas really had it in for her.

[Ken Ashcroft]

Another interesting note is that the dialogue in ANH seems to imply Anakin is still a Padawan ("When I left you I was but the learner") although it's pretty clear he's a knight in ROTS (Mainly referring to Obi-Wan as "Master" as a sign of respect, much like Obi-Wan does to the other Masters).

I doubt if Lucas back in 1977 had even thought about the concept of padawans, knights and masters titles for the Jedi or any detailed backstory and history of the Jedi order so I wouldn’t put that much importance of any dialogue in ANH that seem to contradict the later prequel/sequel films.

[Carabas]

I doubt if Lucas back in 1977 had even thought about the concept of padawans, knights and masters titles for the Jedi or any detailed backstory and history of the Jedi order so I wouldn’t put that much importance of any dialogue in ANH that seem to contradict the later prequel/sequel films.

"...a young Jedi, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil..."
While Lucas may not have yet decided to call Jedi apprentices "Padawans", it is implied that Vader originally didn't get to graduate from Jedi Hogwarts...

[Vegeta]

"...a young Jedi, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil..."
While Lucas may not have yet decided to call Jedi apprentices "Padawans", it is implied that Vader originally didn't get to graduate from Jedi Hogwarts...

Well he didn't obtain the rank of Jedi Master, however he was acknowledged as a Jedi Knight in ANH. "I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."

[Carabas]

Well he didn't obtain the rank of Jedi Master, however he was acknowledged as a Jedi Knight in ANH. "I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."

So it is an actual for real plot hole, a contradiction in the script. Which should come as no surprise considering who wrote it.

[GhostPirate]

How exactly was Anakin personally supposed to go around the galaxy killing what may be thousands of Jedi on active battlefields? Vader did march on the temple and we know he was responsible for killing Jedi there. Of course not all of them, that would be ridiculous, but we know he has a body count not limited to the kids due to what Kenobi and Yoda walk in on the aftermath of, and the holo Obi-wan looks at later. I think you missed the holo because we actually do watch him strike down a Jedi before he deals with the other two, one of which is a Jedi master. No sounds of blasters are on the holo so it's reasonable to assume Anakin struck down the three of them. As an aside he actually is chocking one to death as he's fighting Cin-drallig with one arm.

Yoda also wasn't enough for Sidious. They are evenly matched throughout the fight, and not only did Yoda take a real big fall and lose his lightsaber in the process, Palpatine also has an entire army which we know had been present or showed up shortly after. Yoda simply wasn't getting anywhere in the fight.

There's a bit of irony to your missing the point of my post in your defense of GL.

I never said he had to kill all the Jedi single-handedly; but it would have been more interesting to actually give us some taste of him fighting, and defeating, adult masters rather than slaughtering a few kids. A no, a few brief shots on a holo wouldn't have been enough, I'm just someone who prefers my filmmakers to show rather than tell... or worse, tease a much better story/scene that they only provide glimpses or Easter Eggs of.

And no, I haven't re-watched the prequels in a while. Life is short, why waste it poring over awful movies?

Regardless, the whole concept and execution of 'order 66' just came off as lazy and uninspired. These supposed masters were, uniformly, unable to recognize something was wrong (which, by the way, is ANOTHER problem- how much the Jedi and the Force are built up, only to get taken down by a bad, overwrought montage, and why was Yoda seemingly the only one to feel it happening?) and get taken out, in every case, by a bare handful of clone troopers.

In addition, there's something about murdering a bunch of helpless children which itself kills any real emotion of the so-called "redemption arc" that ended some 20+ years earlier in RotJ.

As far as Yoda v Emperor you missed the point... Yoda completely quit, and then went into seclusion for the next 20 years. It had to happen because of where he was in the OT timeline, but it didn't feel entirely in character, and came off as more than a bit forced.

I do get it though, what feels like the worst in paint-by-number storytelling to get all these characters into the positions they're in by the original Star Wars to me comes off somehow as visionary storytelling to others.

[Agent Z]

There's a bit of irony to your missing the point of my post in your defense of GL.

I never said he had to kill all the Jedi single-handedly; but it would have been more interesting to actually give us some taste of him fighting, and defeating, adult masters rather than slaughtering a few kids. A no, a few brief shots on a holo wouldn't have been enough, I'm just someone who prefers my filmmakers to show rather than tell... or worse, tease a much better story/scene that they only provide glimpses or Easter Eggs of.

And no, I haven't re-watched the prequels in a while. Life is short, why waste it poring over awful movies?

Regardless, the whole concept and execution of 'order 66' just came off as lazy and uninspired. These supposed masters were, uniformly, unable to recognize something was wrong (which, by the way, is ANOTHER problem- how much the Jedi and the Force are built up, only to get taken down by a bad, overwrought montage, and why was Yoda seemingly the only one to feel it happening?) and get taken out, in every case, by a bare handful of clone troopers.

In addition, there's something about murdering a bunch of helpless children which itself kills any real emotion of the so-called "redemption arc" that ended some 20+ years earlier in RotJ.

As far as Yoda v Emperor you missed the point... Yoda completely quit, and then went into seclusion for the next 20 years. It had to happen because of where he was in the OT timeline, but it didn't feel entirely in character, and came off as more than a bit forced.

I do get it though, what feels like the worst in paint-by-number storytelling to get all these characters into the positions they're in by the original Star Wars to me comes off somehow as visionary storytelling to others.

As opposed to all the other atrocities Vader is said and shown to have committed in the Emperor's name in the original trilogy?

Yoda quit after getting his ass kicked by what was at the time the most powerful Sith Lord and a man who now had an entire empire at his disposal and feeling like he and the Jedi as a whole had failed the galaxy.

[Carabas]

How exactly was Anakin personally supposed to go around the galaxy killing what may be thousands of Jedi on active battlefields? Vader did march on the temple and we know he was responsible for killing Jedi there. Of course not all of them, that would be ridiculous, but we know he has a body count not limited to the kids due to what Kenobi and Yoda walk in on the aftermath of, and the holo Obi-wan looks at later. I think you missed the holo because we actually do watch him strike down a Jedi before he deals with the other two, one of which is a Jedi master. No sounds of blasters are on the holo so it's reasonable to assume Anakin struck down the three of them. As an aside he actually is chocking one to death as he's fighting Cin-drallig with one arm....

It just comes down to creative decisions made by Lucas in the 00's not matching up with what he wrote back in the 70's.

He could have just as easily not done a movie with an 11-year old Annie. Have Episode I be about Obi-Wan and his pupil Anakin. Then have Episode II be about Anakin's fall, and finally have Darth Vader, armour and all, be the main villain of Episode III. That should allow for some proper hunting down of Jedi instead of letting the Clones wipe out 99% of the Jedi Order in an instant.

[Vegeta]

So it is an actual for real plot hole, a contradiction in the script. Which should come as no surprise considering who wrote it.

Well if we are using your school analogy you can graduate from college and then go back to obtain your master's degree. Grad students sometimes teach undergrad classes, etc.

[ClanAskani]

I don't think anyone expected numbers that high. Domestic the expectations were $740-$770 Million.

It's impossible to say it's not underperforming now. (Even Forbes' Scott Mendelson has finally seen the light: https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme...s-to-top-600m/). The domestic box office totals for TLJ last weekend were 90% of Rogue One's. Monday was 88% of Rogue One. It's already lost more theaters than Rogue One and on Friday, it will lose even more.

If it keeps the trend of 90% of Rogue One's box office, TLJ ends up with $622 Million domestic and doesn't beat The Avengers ($623 Million). Whether it beats Avengers all depends on next weekend and how many theaters it loses. If the downward trend keeps up and there is a March/April home video release, then it's possible it ends up with $618-$620 Million.

It would be one thing if the box office was down, but the fact that the absolutely astounding legs of Jumanji and now Greatest Showman are the major stories of the holiday season makes this fall even more disappointing. Theaters are keeping Showman and dropping TLJ which is something no one could have ever predicted.

FYI, The Last Jedi is currently at $618,710,718 domestically and down to five digits daily box office figures. With the digital release in two weeks, there's likely it will only end up below $620 Million domestic. There's a chance that gets beaten by Black Panther. After 10 days of release, Black Panther is soundly beating Last Jedi (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime...days=10&p=.htm)

With the MCU, what Disney wants is every movie is bigger and keeps building an audience. More and more fans are added and the box office keeps increasing. That isn't happening with Star Wars. The box office for The Last Jedi was only above Rogue One's because of the $220 Million opening weekend. It performed similarly and was out of theaters quickly (Jumanji is currently in over 2,200 more theaters than Last Jedi). Disney did a push to re-expand Coco to have a film in wide release in late January because Last Jedi fell off so badly. They've lost older fans and the main fans they've added are the crazy Reylo supporters.

Lucasfilm can't be happy about Black Panther since it's another movie outperforming expectations that Disney execs will use as a benchmark for SW films. MCU movies give fans what they want - not make them sad and depressed about what happened to their heroes.

[ChrisIII]

The term Padawan actually goes back to the very early drafts of Star Wars, which Lucas mined extensively for the prequels.

I also think it's one of the few things from the prequels brought up in pop culture not in a negative sense; although I'm pretty sure most of the references are 90% Judd Apatow, Greg Daniels, and Joss Whedon.

[Somecrazyaussie]

So, apparently Han Solo's funeral takes place in the novel and comic adaptation of The Last Jedi, but wasn't included in the film because Johnson didn't have time to do it. Snoke's backstory was revealed in Rebels and will be fleshed out further in another novel where it'll be revealed that he met Luke at some point. At a point when both are seeking the origins of the force?

If everything is being covered in other media, what the hell was the point of this movie? Johnson seriously didn't think the story over. He cut stuff that was pertinent, but kept the stuff where he went off on some animal right's tangent that didn't have bearing on the actual story being told? Now we learn Abrams had drafts for all three films (7 - 9), but johnson used none of it. Which probably means Episode 9 will be disjointed.

The more behind the scenes stuff I hear, the more disheartened I become with the current workings at Lucas Film.

[ChrisIII]

The novels don't always reflect deleted material. Both the TPM and AOTC novels featured lengthy prologues with the characters that I'm pretty sure were never in any of Lucas's drafts of the films; such as Anakin helping out a Tusken Raider in the desert, and the entire story of Shmi getting captured, Anakin rushing back to Coruscant to meet Pamde again, and Padme discussing security with Captain Panaka and Typho.

Even the TFA novel embellished a bit.


The deleted scenes that have been revealed seem to be either redundant (Luke grieving over Han; cut because the scene in the Falcon covered the same story beats) or alternate versions of existing scenes (including a lot with Finn).

Pretty sure Snoke's backstory wasn't revealed in Rebels-there were some fan theories that tried to link him to it but I think that was it.