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  1. #586
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    No, you are casting a tremendous broad brush. She knows how to use a stick against random people, therefore, she knows how to fight using any weapons against any person.

    Even for SW that's a bit too out there.
    That scene was meant to show that she is definitely better then average. Random people maybe random. But there were three of them whom she beat within seconds. So, its shown that she can put up a fight and is pretty tough. Unlike someone like me who would struggle and may loose. I repeat she beat them up within seconds without breaking a sweat. She is awesome.

    This isnt arrow this is SW and we are using SW events that apparently dont count anymore.
    This is fiction. In real life i don't think anyone can be an expert like this. But people do not question Arrow do they? But they question Rey. Isn't it double standard when one fictional story is okay but another is not. I am not saying that Rey is an equal to Kylo in skills. That's not true. But she is definitely good enough to defeat Kylo when:

    1. He is injured
    2. When he is trying to capture her and not kill
    3. When she taps into the Force.

    Its logically fine.

    No it's not both Anakin and Luke were told about the force then trained to use it. They didnt just hear tales and start pulling out moves left and right out of nowhere.
    But its not a hard and fast rule that you have to be told to do so and can't try it by yourself. The broom boy at the end did so himself. Leia did not know Force pull, to pull her to the spaceship in TLJ. Sensing someone with the Force does not require training. Leia could hear Luke at the end of ESB. She had literally no training. How could she do it? I gave a weightlifting analogy. If i am naturally strong i can lift better then someone weak. But to actually lift really heavy weights i need to train. Some things are really easy for Rey. Others have to be learnt.

    The very first scene is Luke predicting attacks using a LS, what the hell man?
    And that much was enough? Enough to fight a fully trained and experienced Sith Lord? That training was about learning to trust and use the Force. It was not light saber training. And even if it was, it was 15 minutes or so. That much against a powerful Sith Lord? No it does not sound logical.

    On top of yoda training which we didnt see all of it.
    Light saber training isn't shown at all. But even then how much training was it? Days? Weeks? Months? That much against a fully trained and experienced Sith Lord. Yoda mentioned that Luke is too old for training. Darth Vader has trained for a much longer time. Even if we pretend that prequels don't exist(but they do) that's long time of training and experience. If we take Prequels that's years from childhood. Clone Wars is definitely one place where he had fought already. Vader is among the best, most experienced and had a lot more training then Luke. The (imagined) light saber training at Dagobah is not enough to even stand against Vader. The fight shall go in only one way. Vader disarms(ha!) Luke within seconds.

    On top of, the thing you keep saying about Kylo, Vader actually fighting to capture. Which actually ended up with Luke without a hand for "fighting to capture" doesnt mean taking it that easy.
    Easy or not, the situations are very similar. Both Rey and Luke were barely trained in light saber wielding when fighting someone with years of training and experience. Both trying to capture. Kylo was injured. (Chewbacca's blaster is powerful enough to throw people across the room). Rey has abilities to put up a fight as shown in the film. Luke was not shown fighting a battle using a staff or lightsaber or anything like that. Luke's training in light saber which even if it did happen off screen in ESB was surely very little in front of Vader. One can see that both are similar.

    i dunno, but he had time to do it, which rey does not.

    Yes i know the new lore. The issue is how it conflicts with the old lore.

    Jedis were not mutants that just pop out powers, Jedis are people that train to become better.
    That my friend is the thing. Force is by nature really mysterious. Till TLJ we didn't even know something like 'Darkness rises and light to meet it'. That to counter someone really powerful in the dark side, the Force empowers someone else. There was talk of bringing balance to the Force. About Luke Skywalker being the chosen one. Force works in mysterious ways. Jedi may know how to use the Force. But they don't fully understand its nature. Force is somehow 'choosing'. It gave birth to Anakin Skywalker without a father.

    Force is working in different ways here. It may contradict some stuff from the old lore. But there is precedence to it. Anakin Skywalker in Phantom Menace won a race and was flying ships and defeated the Trade Federation or whatever its name was. No kid can be so ridiculously talented to fly a ship into battle and win a war. The Force was with him. You gave the example of mutants. But Jedi and Mutants are similar in some respects. Not everyone is born with the X-gene. Similarly, not everyone is born in connection with the Force. Both need training to 'hone' one's abilities. The new thing is some feats like Force pull or mind control don't require training for the new generation if you want to say so. The Force. Mumbo jumbo. Magic. That's how this is going to be. Its fine that you dislike it. I am fine with it. Let us agree to disagree. (I still say that Rey could manage such feats in TFA because she is somehow really powerful. Most people need more training).

    Luke trained in between ESB and ROTJ. A while back a fan posted that Luke had self training. Perhaps with the help of Obi Wan. Rey is not fully trained yet. She did Force pull and mind control and resisting Kylo's mind control without training in TFA. In TLJ she did lift some rocks after Luke's training. She is still far from being a Jedi. Yoda said she has everything she needs. (Knowing that she has those Jedi books). Luke is going to show up. He said to Kylo before disappearing "See you around kid." I am quite sure there would be a time gap in the next episode. By that time there might be no more questions. Hopefully.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 01-10-2018 at 05:41 AM.

  2. #587
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Again some people seem to be forgetting/ignoring that the whole point in ESB was that Luke NEVER had a chance against Vader. Obi Wan and Yoda warned him, and they were right. Luke never could have defeated Vader at that point. The fight only lasted as long as it did, because Vader was toying with him the whole time. And once he took things even remotely seriously, Luke was beaten mere SECONDS later.

    That's VERY different from Rey vs. Kylo.
    Toying. No he was not toying. He was trying to capture him. Luke managed to throw Darth from a platform. (Or Vader was foolish enough to loose his balance. lol). Luke managed one hit too. Its like i can manage a hit against Vader. Luke was fighting with the light saber for the first time. The time when fight became too much for Luke was when Darth started throwing things at Luke. Vader was struggling more then what one might expect from a Sith Lord. The fight went longer then it had any right to be.

    And why do fans forget that Kylo was actually injured by Chewbacca's blaster. Something powerful enough to throw people across the room. And Rey can fight. She beat three people within seconds at Jakku. Things are pretty similar.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 01-10-2018 at 05:32 AM.

  3. #588
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    Broom boy did not call the broom to his hand. The kids were re-enacting Luke’s story with toys, broom boy looked up to the stars while holding it and then started holding it at the end like a sword. Then the focus was on the ring. This was to show how Luke brought Hope back to the next generation. The kid never used the force

  4. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grind View Post
    Broom boy did not call the broom to his hand. The kids were re-enacting Luke’s story with toys, broom boy looked up to the stars while holding it and then started holding it at the end like a sword. Then the focus was on the ring. This was to show how Luke brought Hope back to the next generation. The kid never used the force
    You're wrong. I remember the scene vividly. He did call the broom to him. It's a blink and you'll miss it moment, but he did, indeed, call the broom to him. It was after that when he held it like a lightsaber, looking up at the stars.

  5. #590
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grind View Post
    Broom boy did not call the broom to his hand. The kids were re-enacting Luke’s story with toys, broom boy looked up to the stars while holding it and then started holding it at the end like a sword. Then the focus was on the ring. This was to show how Luke brought Hope back to the next generation. The kid never used the force
    It was before that.

    The broom was leaning against the wall and he called it to his hand.

  6. #591
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    That is the official explanation (and we do see her practicing using such weapons in both TLJ and the TFA junior novelization). It's also worth noting that she's only been in one lightsaber duel so far (Starkiller Base) and you can tell that she's trying to adapt quarter-staff moves to a sword and it doesn't go so well for her until she connects with the Force.
    in TFA she took on a force user trained under 2 people right after picking up the saber.
    In TLJ at least she swung the thing around but and then she is taking on royal guards, several at one time.

    At least she got cut in the second fight but it's still a huge jump.

    Each scenario is unique to itself.
    sure, but since he was hurt he shouldn't be playing games and should be going for the take-down asap.


    About that...



    Not exactly. Anakin had been using the Force to podrace without realizing it in TMP. Luke self-taught himself more than a few things between ANH and ESB (not quite the same, but you get the picture). As seen in stuff like Rebels, "pulling out moves" without training is not unusual for Force-sensitives with no training (although control is not so good). While one could quibble if Rey has too much control, the fact that she can do a few things already is pretty normal.




    Learning telekinesis did not take Luke a lot of time, per Heir to the Jedi. Also, it's very possible that telekinesis is Rey's innate Force skill, per Ahsoka (just my theory, but it does fit the facts).



    Not very much, since the idea of Force newbies bending spoons on their own is a pretty common thing.
    i said this on this thread a few times, having one instinctual power is fine but pulling off 4 the same day you learn you have the force is too much.

  7. #592
    Astonishing Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    in TFA she took on a force user trained under 2 people right after picking up the saber.
    Who was in horrible shape for dueling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    In TLJ at least she swung the thing around but and then she is taking on royal guards, several at one time. At least she got cut in the second fight but it's still a huge jump.
    Not Force sensitives, so it's back to standard melee combat, which she knows, as set up in TFA and elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    sure, but since he was hurt he shouldn't be playing games and should be going for the take-down asap.
    His mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    i said this on this thread a few times, having one instinctual power is fine but pulling off 4 the same day you learn you have the force is too much.
    One instinctual power is the max that canon has established so far (although it has yet to be established if this's for all Force users or just some). However, we have seen Force users use certain skills untrained outside of their allotted one before, so it happens, Given that Rey is established to be an above-average Force user, I think it all checks out. Mileage may vary.
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  8. #593
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    So there's a deleted scene involving Luke's third lesson to Rey.

    spoilers:
    When Rey sees smoke in the distance, Luke tells her that raiders frequently attack the fish-nuns. When she insists they come to the aid of the fish-nuns, Luke forbids her, saying the raiders would only come back in stronger numbers the next time when she's not there to help. Rey leaps into action anyway only to find the smoke is coming from a party the fish-nuns are having with Chewbacca and BB-8. Rey is pissed because Luke is wasting her time when the Resistance needs their help. Luke tells her he wanted her to disobey him, because the world needs an independent thinker more than someone attached to a rigid Jedi code.
    end of spoilers

    The scene was cut because it was deemed to make Luke too unlikeable. I can see that, but it also highlights that Luke genuinely wants Rey to learn something, and he supports her going back out into the world to make a difference--just not in the manner of the Jedi. This also gets into the idea that the Jedi were too bureaucratic in the PT era.

  9. #594
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Also of note, Mark Hamill has said in an interview that Rian Johnson originally wanted rocks levitating around Luke at the end of TFA to show how powerful he'd become.

    So Rian Johnson wasn't always planning to have Luke cut himself off from the Force.

  10. #595
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Also of note, Mark Hamill has said in an interview that Rian Johnson originally wanted rocks levitating around Luke at the end of TFA to show how powerful he'd become.

    So Rian Johnson wasn't always planning to have Luke cut himself off from the Force.
    Just being able to cut oneself off from the Force might be a pretty significant power in of itself; cloaking one's own Force abilities (especially when one has megaloads of it) is some kind of feat.

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  11. #596
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Just being able to cut oneself off from the Force might be a pretty significant power in of itself; cloaking one's own Force abilities (especially when one has megaloads of it) is some kind of feat.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    And a justifiable power considering that someone as powerful as Darth Sidious could hide in plain sight which retroactively makes him being in the same room as multiple powerful Jedi like Yoda make a ton of sense.
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  12. #597
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    These lessons Luke wanted Rey to learn like in the deleted scene make me all the more suspicious that what Johnson has planned for his new trilogy is indeed a story set in the far future dealing with a new Jedi order. As it is he already planted a ton of seeds in TFA that Luke's ideas that old ways and structures of the Jedi were archaic and not applicable to the galaxy as it is now were sound opinions. That it seems Yoda of all beings actually agrees with him, goes a long way to me in showing where Johnson's head is for the future of the Jedi. And what better opportunity to see those ideas come to fruition now that he has the keys to the verse in a new, disconnected trilogy.

    I'm comfortable right now calling that the new trilogy will take place hundreds of years into the future if not more. I also wouldn't be surprised at this point if the First Order isn't concretely defeated in IX, setting up their continued existence as a consistent foil for many generations for the New Republic and by the time of the new trilogy, both power structures are very much still in place with the galaxy split between them.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-11-2018 at 12:08 PM.
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  13. #598
    Spectacular Member Serpico Jones's Avatar
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    I don’t think we’ll be seeing much of Rian Johnson in the future when it comes to Star Wars. I think he’s going to get blamed for a lot of things.

  14. #599
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    He's creating the new trilogy and absolutely nothing about this film's performance suggests Disney's going to sour on him. Hardcore fan blame on things they didn't like only goes so far when compared to the bottom line. Performance will always win out when there's a discrepancy between fan outcry and revenue. The movie is a smashing financial success. He's not going anywhere.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-11-2018 at 01:46 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  15. #600
    Rebel that Rebels BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpico Jones View Post
    I dont think well be seeing much of Rian Johnson in the future when it comes to Star Wars. I think hes going to get blamed for a lot of things.
    They gave him a trilogy ...
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