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  1. #856
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Ben had done things wrong. We just didn't see details. But its confirmed that Snoke was well into the process of turning him to the dark side by that point. Knowing that, it goes without saying that he'd done bad deeds. At least I've never seen an instance where someone was being seduced by the dark side yet had technically to that point not done anything bad. Doing questionable things is part of the seduction process.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-08-2018 at 05:35 PM.
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  2. #857
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Yeah, the TFA dialogue between Han and Leia does seem to imply that there were problems at home which led to them sort of trusting Luke to perhaps "fix" him.
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  3. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    TLJ is currently the best-selling Bluray of 2018, outselling Black Panther and Thor Ragnorock by a significant amount.

    http://screencrush.com/blu-ray-sales...ars-last-jedi/
    Wait, i thought if "get woke, you go broke"..LOL..nonsense.

    I doubt those loud "fans" on youtube will report this.
    Last edited by Username taken; 09-10-2018 at 04:47 AM.
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  4. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Wait, i thought if "get woke, you go broke"..LOL..nonsense.

    I doubt those loud "fans" on youtube will report this.
    As I said before, though, the problem is that, at least compared to Black Panther, it's had a lot more time to sell than Black Panther did. And you can't forget about the rest of the franchise, which is more than just DVD/Blu-Ray sales. It is future movies, merchandise, TV programs, etcetera. The merchandising sales are down noticeably, and Solo underperformed to outright bombed at the box office. While there were some other factors with Solo underperforming, as well as it not being a numbered episode, it still had the Star Wars name behind it. It should have done at least 600 million or so. It's Star Wars. It should not lose 80-200 million dollars (depending on who you read or listen to). And besides that, Rogue One made over a billion at the box office. And you can't deny the division in the Star Wars fanbase at the moment, even if it is a minority of fans, and I'm not certain it is. Solo's performance at the box office is clearly evidence of that.

    And as for comparing it to Thor: Ragnarok, don't forget that Thor: Ragnarok did not have the box office performance that The Last Jedi did. Even with the backlash, I would not necessarily expect Thor to outsell Star Wars in DVD/BLu-Ray sales. For me, Episode IX will be the true indicator of the reception of The Last Jedi, as well as the state of the franchise. If it does well, The Last Jedi was only a blip, if that. However, if Episode IX underperforms (and I would put anything less than a billion as underperforming) for reasons that would not necessarily be obvious in film (such as bad production quality, terrible story or phoned in acting), then we will all be able to look back to The Last Jedi as the beginning of the fall.
    Last edited by Enterprise E; 09-10-2018 at 05:43 AM.

  5. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterprise E View Post
    As I said before, though, the problem is that, at least compared to Black Panther, it's had a lot more time to sell than Black Panther did. And you can't forget about the rest of the franchise, which is more than just DVD/Blu-Ray sales. It is future movies, merchandise, TV programs, etcetera. The merchandising sales are down noticeably, and Solo underperformed to outright bombed at the box office. While there were some other factors with Solo underperforming, as well as it not being a numbered episode, it still had the Star Wars name behind it. It should have done at least 600 million or so. It's Star Wars. It should not lose 80-200 million dollars (depending on who you read or listen to). And besides that, Rogue One made over a billion at the box office. And you can't deny the division in the Star Wars fanbase at the moment, even if it is a minority of fans, and I'm not certain it is. Solo's performance at the box office is clearly evidence of that.

    And as for comparing it to Thor: Ragnarok, don't forget that Thor: Ragnarok did not have the box office performance that The Last Jedi did. Even with the backlash, I would not necessarily expect Thor to outsell Star Wars in DVD/BLu-Ray sales. For me, Episode IX will be the true indicator of the reception of The Last Jedi, as well as the state of the franchise. If it does well, The Last Jedi was only a blip, if that. However, if Episode IX underperforms (and I would put anything less than a billion as underperforming) for reasons that would not necessarily be obvious in film (such as bad production quality, terrible story or phoned in acting), then we will all be able to look back to The Last Jedi as the beginning of the fall.
    Oh, no doubt, there is fan division. Make no mistake, I'm firmly in the camp of people that severely disliked The Last Jedi. I honestly can't say I'm hyped for the next part (unless they somehow bring back Luke Skywalker...alive that is).

    That being said, there's a narrative going round TLJ underperformed on blu-ray and in cinema which just isn't true. If people hated the movie that much, folks won't go out to buy the blu-rays. It's sold a little more than Black Panther but that's not entirely surprising because BP made more than TLJ domestically and was just a monster all round.
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  6. #861
    Incredible Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    TLJ is currently the best-selling Bluray of 2018, outselling Black Panther and Thor Ragnorock by a significant amount.

    http://screencrush.com/blu-ray-sales...ars-last-jedi/
    Sales figures compared to TFA are down considerably, but that has to do with Walmart vs Disney sales issues which probably have also impacted Ragnarok and BP. Disney isn't giving Walmart deep discounts.

  7. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    Sales figures compared to TFA are down considerably...
    And they always would have been, no matter how good or bad the film is.

  8. #863
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    Sales figures compared to TFA are down considerably, but that has to do with Walmart vs Disney sales issues which probably have also impacted Ragnarok and BP. Disney isn't giving Walmart deep discounts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    And they always would have been, no matter how good or bad the film is.
    Empire did less than Star Wars, AotC did less than Phantom Menance, TLJ did less than TFA, Solo did less than R1 ... it's like a pattern or something. ;p
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  9. #864
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    There were toys sales issues too I guess, but I think that's probably more of an industry-wide thing, considering TRU went out of business.
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  10. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    There were toys sales issues too I guess, but I think that's probably more of an industry-wide thing, considering TRU went out of business.
    Toy sales should be discounted for either side because times *have* changed. I mean, my nephew and niece have toys, but if you want to keep them occupied? You break out an iPad.

    As to the Box office and BluRay sales for TLJ vs TFA, I'm of the opinion that, unfortunately, the answer currently is that both sides are right and wrong in different areas.

    Yes, the first entry in an SW trilogy traditionally makes more $ than the immediate sequel, but yes, TLJ has a larger disparity between the two box office takes than its predecessors; TLJ *did* make a billion dollars, but whereas ESB was a lot closer to ANH than AOTC was to TPM, and AOTC was significantly closer to TPM than TLJ was to TFA.

    Yes, RO followed TFA and made a tidy profit, while Solo sunk in the shadow of TLJ, but yeah, most of that would have been down to timing, BTS drama, time of release, and a simply lackluster premise. Still, TFA did leave audience in an excited mood that probably did feed more into RO's box office than TLJ did into Solo, but yeah, TLJ wasn't interested in being as engaging for specualtion.

    Yes, TLJ is currently beating Black Panther in sales... But BP *was* released later than TLJ, and ultimately the scoreboard at the box office probably does tip the game in BP's favor as an overall movie; TLJ had the bigger opening in the winter release date, and it's legs died comparatively quickly, while BP was released in Febuary and trucked to its larger take over months. The home video discussion for both films is also probably skewed away from a total answer because of Disney putting both films on Netflix, and because of how episodic SW films are maybe more likely to be collected for a franchise set than a Marvel movie. Plus, I don't believe anyone has solid numbers in the digital realm, since the great thing about digital is that it can keep selling long after the physical copies have left the shelves.

    At the end of the day, I'm always going to be biased, but I'd say that, at least for now, I'd not be faulted for saying that TLJ seems a bit disappointing in its profitability considering it's more (immediate) critical acclamation than both previous "Part Two" Saga films at its release; ESB was not heralded by critics at the time like TLJ was, and AOTC is arguably not a comparison you want to make with an ST movie, since that's generally regarded as an inferior movie to TPM, an already troubled film.

    To me, TLJ *is* an inferior successor to TFA because of its poor plotting, but it's quality of acting and directing *is* superior to the prequels and genuinely excellent. I think that Rian Johnson the Director was perfect for the job, but Rian Johnson the Writer stumbled in an unusual way considering his previous record, and focused on the wrong characters while also mischaracterizing others, so even though he was good enough to have a clearly strong rapport with all his actors and get *fantastic* performances out of them... He couldn't stop himself from giving Boyega's Finn pointless and redundant busywork, or from just miswriting Rey by ignoring what had happened in TFA, or simply not adding that much to the villains and Galaxy, and while he took a gamble with Luke that paid off for plenty of people, his lack of superstructure around Luke meant that the film lacked the staying power it *should* have had, since the people for whom the Luke gamble didn't pay off on didn't have any quality stuff to really fall back on.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 09-11-2018 at 09:10 PM.
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  11. #866
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    Percentage-wise the drop from TFA to TLJ was very close to the drop from ANH to ESB and from TPM to AOTC.

    Going by Box office Mojo: A New Hope made $307 million domestically during its original run. Empire Strikes Back fell to just $209 million, nearly $100 million less and dropping by about a third. Then Return of the Jedi partially bounced back with $252 million. With the prequels, Phantom Menace made $924 million worldwide. Attack of the Clones fell to about $650 million, again, about a third. And then Revenge of the Sith bounced back to $848 million. The drop from TFA to TLJ is from $2,068,223,624 to $1,332,539,889. That looks positively huge, but it also comes out to not much more than a third. And it's still the second highest grossing film in the franchise.

  12. #867
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Percentage-wise the drop from TFA to TLJ was very close to the drop from ANH to ESB and from TPM to AOTC.

    Going by Box office Mojo: A New Hope made $307 million domestically during its original run. Empire Strikes Back fell to just $209 million, nearly $100 million less and dropping by about a third. Then Return of the Jedi partially bounced back with $252 million. With the prequels, Phantom Menace made $924 million worldwide. Attack of the Clones fell to about $650 million, again, about a third. And then Revenge of the Sith bounced back to $848 million. The drop from TFA to TLJ is from $2,068,223,624 to $1,332,539,889. That looks positively huge, but it also comes out to not much more than a third. And it's still the second highest grossing film in the franchise.
    Yeah, there's really no way to say that this film was a financial disappointment because a subset of fans were disappointed...and I'm saying that as someone who didn't really think it was a good film, I'm just not pretending that my feelings have a financial impact on the the series.

  13. #868
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Yeah, there's really no way to say that this film was a financial disappointment because a subset of fans were disappointed...and I'm saying that as someone who didn't really think it was a good film, I'm just not pretending that my feelings have a financial impact on the the series.
    Exactly.

    I don't like what Disney is doing with Star Wars but the movies (outside of Solo) is making bank.
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