Star Wars The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

[The Whovian]

no Phasma is dead. She's not coming back from that

I don't know. These are movies. It's quite possible she survived. I'm not writing her off just yet.

[The Whovian]

Very good point about the FO practice of churning out stormies.

But no, Jedi don't give in to fear like that. Which is why Luke's retreat to Ach-To is so baffling. If, as was stated in the TFA scroll, it was to seek out the first Jedi temple and learn its secrets it makes sense. But if, like in this movie, it was to just go sulk, then there seems little point. You can sulk anywhere - why go to the birthplace of the Jedi? Make's no sense and make me think that when Abrams was getting the first one done there was a different plan in mind.

And need it be pointed out that Kenobi and Yoda lost thousands of friends and younglings in Order 66, and did not end up broken cynical old farts like Luke at the opening of TFA. Kenobi even took personal responsiblity for failing Anakin. Is Luke Skywalker really that much less resilient?

That was one of my biggest complaints of the movie.

[The Whovian]

I go by the "soap opera rule" when it comes to TV + movie death

No body, no problem

unless you go out like a G, like Jenny Shepherd in NCIS

LOL. I agree with this logic

[ChrisIII]

Anybody think the fleets in the sequel trilogies are a bit smallish? The Starkiller attack on Hosnian seems to have left the Republic pretty much unguarded-and the Resistance only has three Capital ships (Basically upgraded versions of the Rebel fleet ships).

Then again, maybe they're following the example of the old Republic, which in the first two prequels didn't have any real military at all until one conveinently became available thanks to Sifo-Dyas (and also Dooku, as Clone Wars reveals)

[Buried Alien]

Very good point about the FO practice of churning out stormies.

But no, Jedi don't give in to fear like that. Which is why Luke's retreat to Ach-To is so baffling. If, as was stated in the TFA scroll, it was to seek out the first Jedi temple and learn its secrets it makes sense. But if, like in this movie, it was to just go sulk, then there seems little point. You can sulk anywhere - why go to the birthplace of the Jedi? Make's no sense and make me think that when Abrams was getting the first one done there was a different plan in mind.

And need it be pointed out that Kenobi and Yoda lost thousands of friends and younglings in Order 66, and did not end up broken cynical old farts like Luke at the opening of TFA. Kenobi even took personal responsiblity for failing Anakin. Is Luke Skywalker really that much less resilient?

The difference might be that to Luke, Ben Solo was literally family. Luke felt that he had not only failed the Jedi legacy, but Han and Leia as well.

Additionally, Luke had to bear the burden alone, whereas Yoda's and Obi-Wan's failures were also borne by the Jedi in general.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[SuperiorIronman]

Very good point about the FO practice of churning out stormies.

But no, Jedi don't give in to fear like that. Which is why Luke's retreat to Ach-To is so baffling. If, as was stated in the TFA scroll, it was to seek out the first Jedi temple and learn its secrets it makes sense. But if, like in this movie, it was to just go sulk, then there seems little point. You can sulk anywhere - why go to the birthplace of the Jedi? Make's no sense and make me think that when Abrams was getting the first one done there was a different plan in mind.

And need it be pointed out that Kenobi and Yoda lost thousands of friends and younglings in Order 66, and did not end up broken cynical old farts like Luke at the opening of TFA. Kenobi even took personal responsiblity for failing Anakin. Is Luke Skywalker really that much less resilient?

Yeah they do. Jedi get scared, Anakin, Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, Galen, Rahm Kota, Ezra Bridger, need I go on? They get scared and make poor decisions sometimes.

Luke also is startled Yoda would just destroy the location of the Jedi knowledge (books for all Luke knows are still inside), and yet went to burn it down prior. The thing is that Luke is conflicted. He wouldn't have taught Rey if he was just going to die and end the Jedi right there. He wouldn't be freaking out about the books if he just wanted the Jedi gone, he wouldn't have kept his master robes (and keep them in good condition) if he is more content to just be a hermit.
On one hand he just wants to give up, but on the other he's still holding onto the Jedi. His trip to Ach-to could very well have been to seek out the first temple to find something to help, the thing is that we know there was nothing there, just history books. Luke is coming off of the second Jedi purge of students he put in harms way failing exactly like the old masters, and pretty much found nothing useful to him. Ach-to may have just become his place to die if not being an option if nothing worked, we know he went without R2-D2 and sunk his X-Wing. If he found anything useful he would've relayed that, but he didn't.

Yoda hid on Dagobah and kind of went nuts in the swamp. He may not have been cynical but he wasn't all there.
Ben Kenobi also made it no secret that he lied to Luke about his father. Nothing good happened prior to Luke and while it was true from a certain point of view, Ben lied to Luke about the kind of man Anakin is and only told him about how he was. He misses the good ole'days and Vader is not it and that being said he was fully expecting Luke to kill his former friend.

Yoda and Kenobi also had years of warfare of watching friends die and Yoda is around 900. Luke heard about the old Order but also got a trilogies worth of Jedi deaths dropped on him in a single evening among students he was responsible for, and trained a new Vader that did it. He had friends who died in the rebellion but after all the good that came back to the galaxy, and into the Jedi order it got snuffed out in an evening and being (partially) responsible for it might leave someone bitter. That's 50 years of rebuilding just gone.

[godisawesome]

Anybody think the fleets in the sequel trilogies are a bit smallish? The Starkiller attack on Hosnian seems to have left the Republic pretty much unguarded-and the Resistance only has three Capital ships (Basically upgraded versions of the Rebel fleet ships).

Then again, maybe they're following the example of the old Republic, which in the first two prequels didn't have any real military at all until one conveinently became available thanks to Sifo-Dyas (and also Dooku, as Clone Wars reveals)

Johnson and co. are definitely going with an absolutely miniscule military and security presence in the Galaxy except for the TFA-depicted lean and mean First Order fleet, since according to the visual guide, opening scroll, and everything else I can gather, we're supposed to consider the First Order as effectively having conquered the Galaxy overnight, and then the movie has them still deploy about a dozen Star Destryoers and the Supremacy to track down all five ships of the Resistance Fleet and their 400 some members.

It's nitpicky to criticize this element, I'll admit. But I think they missed the boat on a more awesome- and more likely- outcome from TFA in terms of the military and political situation, mostly so they could rush back to the OT status quo as quickly as possible. I mean, as much as we're supposed to consider the New Republic decapitated and its main fleet destroyed, it still boggles the mind that a group introduced as a small, personnel-efficiency obsessed group like the FO could successfully conquer the Galaxy in about a week while it took Palpatine years and an entire proxy war. I mean, I have no issue thinking that the First Order has the largest (by far) remaining true military fleet, with enough of a material advantage in terms of capital ships to seize key strategic points across the Galaxy, but it should still be very far from actual conquest of the bulk of the military for a while. Or that the only forces opposing the First Order are the same small group of 400 Resistance members, when you have to consider that whole species like the Twi-leks, Wookies, and the Mon Cala are likely to have quite a vicious reaction to Imperial cosplayers massacring billions, and the loss of Starkiller should be a significant blow to their intimidation abilities. And that not counting worlds like Chandrila.


I'm hoping JJ deviates the military status quo a bit in IX. Rian Johnson seemed to go out of his way to try and mimic something we've seen before, since he was also the one who asked Claudia Grey to set up the idea of seceding First Order planets in the regular Republic, which seems in hindsight to have been about making it more plausible for the Galaxy to roll over without much fuss. The FO can still be the superpower, but at least show this new Rebel Alliance (gah!) having significant logistical and political advantages over its predecessor, and the FO having a sharper edge to compensate for explicitly less raw power than the Empire.

By the by, everyone, we just uploaded out podcast non-spoiler and spoiler review for The Last Jedi (spoiler start around 27:50). I'd be honored if you gush would give it a listen; I know out audio equipment is rough, but I think we had a pretty good conversation. My podcast partner felt TLJ was a great movie with only nitpicky flaws, though he still gives last of the OT a lead over it. I was of the opinion it's a good movie with one heavily flawed subplot screwed over my favorite character in Finn, but a lot of genuinely great moments. I tried to keep my more subjective and concept based issues (Rey's reveal and Luke's shift, as well as more nitpicky problems like the FO's power portrayal) out of it. That comes later, we hope, in a separate episode.

https://www.buzzsprout.com/132209/61...spoiler-review

So if you like the video, feel free to PM me, or just post here, whether or not you think we did a good job keeping that stuff for later, and of you think that is worth its own episode.

[Franchise408]

What I don’t get that some people are pointing out is that people are looking for some kind of reason that Rey is so powerful in the Force.

I mean, the movie actually kind of goves them a reason if what Snoke says can be trusted...but other than his philosophical musings, what reason could there be?

Why is anyone powerful in the Force?

The entire franchise has also pointed out that even the most powerful Jedi in the lore (Anakin, Luke) had to undergo years and years of training, basically since birth. The OT shows us that Luke is considered "too old" to start training, and the PT takes that even further by showing that child Anakin was also considered too old. But they still underwent loads and loads of training before they become powerful and proficient in the force. Even Kylo Ren is shown attending Jedi training as a child.

But suddenly, Rey just magically has the force mastered all of a sudden?

I can certainly understand why people are weary of Rey being more easily proficient in the force than the lore's most powerful characters without even so much as an explanation why.

[ZeroBG82]

I can certainly understand why people are weary of Rey being more easily proficient in the force than the lore's most powerful characters without even so much as an explanation why.

Of course. But, like any other skill, different people are going to have different natural levels of proficiency. Rey just happens to be a natural at a lot of low level stuff. Not dissimilar from how Anakin was able to use his precognitive powers for pod-racing. She just happens to be good at channeling the flowing energy of the Force. Maybe it's her mindset, maybe it's something about the way she grew up. Maybe it's just that she's naturally willing to go with the flow a lot more than the much more rigid Anakin and Luke.

For my money (and your mileage may obviously vary), The Skywalkers all started from places of CONTROL. How to make the Force do the things they tell it to, to manipulate it directly. Rey seems much more attuned to natural currents in the Force. It LEADS her along much more than she moves it. Her vision when she touches Anakin's saber in TFA, for example. Reading an opponent's moves in combat wouldn't be that different an application of the same idea, and we've also seen her be quite good at that. There's also a compelling argument to be made that the mind probe from TFA, which we already know went both ways, let her basically steal a bunch of Jedi 101 manuals from Ben's head. She goes from basically Force sensitive but incapable to being almost fully padawan proficient just in the span of that scene.

[90'sCartoonMan]

I am thinking that this might be among the darkest Star Wars film in the saga. The victory was simply that the heroes escaped. Wasn't this how Empire Strikes Back ended?

Definitely got some Empire vibes in terms of how much of a downer this one was going to be. At least in ESB, Luke ignoring Yoda and leaving his training did allow him to save his friends (except Han). In TLJ, disobeying orders ended up not doing anyone any good. Kind of depressing coming off Rogue One, but it may end up looking better in hindsight depending on how the heroes come back from it in the next one.

And yes, I even loved what they ultimately did with Luke. Yes, I understand why some didn't but I loved his arc here and that his death came at a moment of true peace, after his arc played out perfectly over the course of the movie. After Return of the Jedi, he was basically left to rebuild the Jedi order by himself so when his most promising student, his own nephew turned to the Dark Side, it makes sense that he would react in the way he did. And it also makes sense that his ultimate redemption was his forgiving himself for his greatest mistake and believing, once again, in the future.
This also means that Mark Hamill probably will be back in the next movie but as a Force ghost - which, incidentally, I think it's now pretty clear that only those Jedi who die in a state of peace get this fate.

Guess that explains why no Qui Gon force ghost, despite him working on the technique.

From where I'm sitting, Kylo Ren is by far the most complex and intricately drawn villain in Star Wars.

One thing I really liked was how this movie added layers to Kylo Ren. Before it was just about needing to kill his father to go over to the Dark Side, but here, rebelling against Snoke was him making his own decisions and still being a villain.

The Jedi need to die off, so what's the point in Rey becoming a Jedi? Why would kids want to be Jedi? And why should Rey bother stealing the books if the order should cease to exist? Why should I continue to care about the Jedi after that movie?

But one thing I didn't like about the movie was how crappy the Jedi come off. The prequels made them pretty horrible, and Luke calls them out on that this time, but then, Luke fails to create a new, working Jedi order.

It wasn't said in English (or Galactic Standard, as the story goes), but apparently, BB8 *beeped* it at us this time around.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Ah, like Chopper did in an episode of Rebels. Must've missed it, but I was looking out for it and disappointed I didn't catch it.

--I think the film's greatest strength is also its biggest weakness. It zigged when you thought it was going to zag so much that you came to expect the twists.

One of my initial reactions walking out of the theatre, especially when it comes to Rey's parents and Snoke's fate, was that it felt like the movie wanted to second guess its audience. They seemed to know what fans thought was going to happen and did the opposite just based on that.

[Jokerz79]

I'm a fan of Rey and have always defended her force abilities but this film didn't help with Rey's label by some as a "Mary Sue" IMO. I mean by the end of this film Rey is the last Jedi a title that took Luke 4 years to achieve going from leaving Tattoine to the beginning of ROTJ even Han couldn't believe in ROTJ when Chewie called Luke a Jedi Knight saying he's out for a little while and now everyone has delusions of grandeur. But Rey and going by these films timeline which Last Jedi picks up right after Force Awakens so at best it's only been a few weeks since Rey was on Jakku by the end of the film and she's a Jedi.

[Carabas]

Guess that explains why no Qui Gon force ghost, despite him working on the technique.

Qui-Gon is a Force Ghost. There's just the technical issue of Liam Neeson not being interested in comingback.

[ChrisIII]

^Liam did do some voice-overs for the Qui-Gon Force Ghost in "Clone Wars", and possibly would've done something similar for a scene in ROTS had he not been involved in a motorcycle accident at the time.

Both scenes pretty much explain that somehow, despite not vanishing at all upon death, Qui-Gon is able to somehow come back and become a force ghost and teaches Yoda and Obi-Wan (and somehow Anakin?)

Technically the resistance/rebels are in a worst place now in ESB. Despite the heroes having suffered personal losses, the Hoth evacuation was mostly successful despite the loss of the base itself and the fleet intact.

[David Walton]

But one thing I didn't like about the movie was how crappy the Jedi come off. The prequels made them pretty horrible, and Luke calls them out on that this time, but then, Luke fails to create a new, working Jedi order.

I think this has been Star War's biggest problem post prequels. When you watch the OT, you get the impression that the Jedi were an undeniable force for good. When you watch the prequels, you start to think they created as many problems as they solved. For an order that insists on training children, they're really, really terrible with kids.

One of my initial reactions walking out of the theatre, especially when it comes to Rey's parents and Snoke's fate, was that it felt like the movie wanted to second guess its audience. They seemed to know what fans thought was going to happen and did the opposite just based on that.

I agree. One of the most frustrating moments for me (in a wonderful film) was when we realize that Luke is not going to die, because he's just projecting his image. And he says, "Be seeing you around, kid." And I was like, "Hell yes! Luke is back in top form for the sequel!"

And then he fades away with no explanation. It was a surprise followed by a reversal of the surprise's implications--Luke doesn't have to die! But oh yeah, he's totally dead. And it all happens so fast, one change on top of the other, that Luke's death doesn't have quite the emotional impact it should. (I think a second viewing will probably be different.)

And the interesting thing about the film's surprises? People tend to fall on opposite sides of the spectrum. I've got friends who think TLJ completely blew up the Star Wars formula and blew the franchise wide open. And I've got other friends who say it's a great film but basically filler that leaves you almost exactly where you started.

I think the film does essentially follow the Star Wars formula. It's ESB 2.0 with Ben Kenobi's death from ANH rolled into the sequel. Going into the third act, the evil power has struck back with a vengeance, the rebellion seems hopeless, and the universe is counting on a Jedi with a dead mentor.

The only change that impacts the formula significantly is Snoke's death. I think the reversal might have been better served if Luke had lived--then Kylo thinks he's free (only to find he's not) and Rey is bound to a Jedi master with whom she can frequently disagree.

If they really wanted to blow the formula wide open, then Rey would have taken Kylo's offer. Or if they wanted to switch it up a little less, they could have left Rey with a living mentor.

[brettc1]

Meanwhile, the carpet bombing of the movies rating by some fans continues on IMDB, but with some interesting results

Starting a couple of days ago at 8/10, it was at 7.7 yesterday. That is a pretty big drop in one day.

Then the score yo-yo'd in the last 24 hours back up to 7.8!