Star Wars The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Sadly, some of these responses are exctly what I was afraid of. I don't understand: why do you want to see a movie that goes exactly where you want it to go. I loved Force Awakens but there was little there that was surprising - that was certainly not the case here.

I loved that Rey is just some kid who happens to have an incredibly strong connection to the Force.
I love that they didn't need to explain who Snoke was, after the prequels overexplained everything.
And yes, I even loved what they ultimately did with Luke. Yes, I understand why some didn't but I loved his arc here and that his death came at a moment of true peace, after his arc played out perfectly over the course of the movie. After Return of the Jedi, he was basically left to rebuild the Jedi order by himself so when his most promising student, his own nephew turned to the Dark Side, it makes sense that he would react in the way he did. And it also makes sense that his ultimate redemption was his forgiving himself for his greatest mistake and believing, once again, in the future.
This also means that Mark Hamill probably will be back in the next movie but as a Force ghost - which, incidentally, I think it's now pretty clear that only those Jedi who die in a state of peace get this fate.
And, yeah, I love that he wasn't actually there for the final showdown with Ben/ Kylo. Not only did it show just how powerful he had become but it wasn't just a repeat of Vader and Obi Wan. And even if he wasn't there, confident, wise and really kinda loveable Luke was just so much fun.
Also, Yoda!!

[Overhazard]

Okay, I liked the movie, I liked it a lot.

I am glad that Rey isn't a Skywalker. That would have been too obvious and it would mean that the entire star wars saga has been about one family screwing up the entire galaxy. Though, I suppose it still kind of is. I like that Rey doesn't come from some special lineage (I would have preferred that she was Obi-Wan's granddaughter, there was a theory about her being connected to palpatine which was interesting). It reminds us that anyone can be a force user, it's not necessarily genetic. (screw the midiclorians, no one likes the midiclorians)

In an odd way, Rey reminds me of the Link from Legend of Zelda: The Windwaker. Like Link, Rey is a person who gets caught up in circumstance, Link didn't want to become the hero of winds, he wanted to save his sister from the helmaroc king, Rey didn't want to be a hero, she wanted to go back to Jakku. That's just me though.

Finn got a big hero moment when he beat captain phasma, he needed one in TFA and he never got it. Though his plot with Rose could have been better, maybe a little shorter.

I see Rey and Kylo as opposing forces now, literally, the fight between them in TFA makes more sense now, as he gets more powerful, so does she.

The reactions I've seen are interesting, people were mad that TFA was too formulaic, but this one isn't formulaic enough. I like that it deviated from the norm a little.

[Punisher007]

Lets see here:

-I hated what they did with Luke here. Basically he dies having failed at everything that he tried to do. He's also written way OOC here. And no, another FG situation is not near good enough to make up for that.

-Rey was a freaking idiot here, and her dynamic with Kylo was cringe-inducing. And it's even worse if you figure how shortly after TFA this is meant to be taking place. And there's far less reason to care about their conflict now imo.

-Rey's parents being nobodies would have been fine with me IF a. they hadn't ripped the Skywalker legacy apart completely, and b. they wouldn't have dragged out telling us that for so freaking long. As it stands, it feels like pointless secrecy, which is irritating.

-I feel bad for John Boyega. He's the fanboy out of the new cast, he was the one trumpeting these films, and they gave him little to work with. At least in TFA he felt like he needed to be there. Here, it's like Rian Johnson couldn't be bothered much with him and so shoved him into some underwhelming subplot (heck even people that like the film overall have criticized his role in it), they drastically underplay his dynamic with Rey here, and he doesn't really accomplish much. Also I know quite a few Finn fans who HATED that last scene on Canto Bright. He feels superfluous here.

-The Poe/Holdo conflict felt like a case of plot-induced stupidity on both sides. Oh and I hated the "slap" scene, so unnecessary.

-Snoke went out like a punk, which was disappointing.

-I felt like most of the deaths here felt really underwhelming. Only one really felt earned to me, and it wasn't the one that you'd expect. Han's death alone surpassed any here imo.

-Benicio del Toro was wasted here. As was Gwendoline Christie.

-Etc.

I almost walked out of this, and the only reason that I didn't is that I've never walked out of a film early before and didn't want to give this movie the satisfaction of being my first one. I think that I hate this film more than I hate AOTC and I didn't think that possible.

Honestly I don't have much enthusiasm for Episode IX now. And I'm most likely skipping Rian Johnson's next trilogy (but I'll still see the other spinoffs). I can't stand his "grand vision" for SW, no thanks.

[Malachi]

I'm a bit torn about this movie.

There are a lot of things to like with it. Rey is a compelling hero who I can see myself following into further movies. Poe's story was a bit of a no-story but I still don't dislike him. Finn and Rose where fun in that it allowed us the high stakes story without making someone else look bad(I will get back into that later on). Leia where a compelling character who I could buy being the leader. The new creatures where fun and that leads to the biggest plus. It felt like it existed inside the star wars world and it also gave it new settings, ships, creatures and so on.

The negatives. If you where annoyed by the weak story in VII then don't expect something better here. Sure we get some twists that work but we all know that twists don't make a story. Both JJ and Shyamalan have showed us this several times.
Kylo still has no motivation beside: I'm evil because I was turned. No general insight into why he was suspectable to being turned or why Leia, Han or Luke didn't act upon this evidently huge character flaw that the biggest "force user ever" had. Even Luke admits that when he decided to intervene it was to late. Witch just laeaves it like: don't bother trying to see if someone will go bad because it's only possible to sense such a conflict after it's to late. Witch if true is just lazy storytelling and not compelling. It pretty much leaves the force and it's twists and turns to something more similair to old movies magic. Zap, now you are evil.
Leia, Han and Luke saved the universe in the first three movies and then pretty much sat around on their asses. Leia and han bickered and Let Ben idolize Darth Vader. Luke went off on adventrues and then later on started a Jedi school where he had no classes about jedi's turning to the dark side or how to prevent it. The first order took over after the empire. They lost some forces but apperently not by much.

I can't remember some details from VII but did the FO erase all their opposition except by a small number of rebels in that movie? Genius move if that is the case becasue even from the start of VIII there is less rebels then there where in IV-VI. No republic and at best some vague few spread out allies at the edge of existence.

I guess that's my biggest critisism. If this is how easy it is for evil to win then there is no point in fighting. Even if Rey&Co beats back the First Order they will just later on either turn themselves or find the next strong force user and beat her/him with canes until her/him turns to the dark side. All the while being oblivious as to why said person would turn or even could turn.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

I'm a bit torn about this movie.

There are a lot of things to like with it. Rey is a compelling hero who I can see myself following into further movies. Poe's story was a bit of a no-story but I still don't dislike him. Finn and Rose where fun in that it allowed us the high stakes story without making someone else look bad(I will get back into that later on). Leia where a compelling character who I could buy being the leader. The new creatures where fun and that leads to the biggest plus. It felt like it existed inside the star wars world and it also gave it new settings, ships, creatures and so on.

The negatives. If you where annoyed by the weak story in VII then don't expect something better here. Sure we get some twists that work but we all know that twists don't make a story. Both JJ and Shyamalan have showed us this several times.
Kylo still has no motivation beside: I'm evil because I was turned. No general insight into why he was suspectable to being turned or why Leia, Han or Luke didn't act upon this evidently huge character flaw that the biggest "force user ever" had. Even Luke admits that when he decided to intervene it was to late. Witch just laeaves it like: don't bother trying to see if someone will go bad because it's only possible to sense such a conflict after it's to late. Witch if true is just lazy storytelling and not compelling. It pretty much leaves the force and it's twists and turns to something more similair to old movies magic. Zap, now you are evil.
Leia, Han and Luke saved the universe in the first three movies and then pretty much sat around on their asses. Leia and han bickered and Let Ben idolize Darth Vader. Luke went off on adventrues and then later on started a Jedi school where he had no classes about jedi's turning to the dark side or how to prevent it. The first order took over after the empire. They lost some forces but apperently not by much.

I can't remember some details from VII but did the FO erase all their opposition except by a small number of rebels in that movie? Genius move if that is the case becasue even from the start of VIII there is less rebels then there where in IV-VI. No republic and at best some vague few spread out allies at the edge of existence.

I guess that's my biggest critisism. If this is how easy it is for evil to win then there is no point in fighting. Even if Rey&Co beats back the First Order they will just later on either turn themselves or find the next strong force user and beat her/him with canes until her/him turns to the dark side. All the while being oblivious as to why said person would turn or even could turn.

I thought his motivations were quite clear. Ben Solo had a tendency to the Dark Side but he only fully fell when he saw his Master apparently trying to kill him. With Snoke's prompting, he took the Light Side to be a crock and joined forces with those who would stand against it; those who would accept him and make the best use of his powers. Ultimately, though, he's still that scared little boy who, tired of the confusions of the past, wants a new slate free of both Jedi and Snoke, who himself was not afraid of belittling him; one which he could build a new order that makes sense to him. He was willing to give Rey a chance not because he suddenly turned "good" but because he believed her to be fundamentally similar to him.

From where I'm sitting, Kylo Ren is by far the most complex and intricately drawn villain in Star Wars.

[godisawesome]

Okay, I liked the movie, I liked it a lot.

I am glad that Rey isn't a Skywalker. That would have been too obvious and it would mean that the entire star wars saga has been about one family screwing up the entire galaxy. Though, I suppose it still kind of is. I like that Rey doesn't come from some special lineage (I would have preferred that she was Obi-Wan's granddaughter, there was a theory about her being connected to palpatine which was interesting). It reminds us that anyone can be a force user, it's not necessarily genetic. (screw the midiclorians, no one likes the midiclorians)

In an odd way, Rey reminds me of the Link from Legend of Zelda: The Windwaker. Like Link, Rey is a person who gets caught up in circumstance, Link didn't want to become the hero of winds, he wanted to save his sister from the helmaroc king, Rey didn't want to be a hero, she wanted to go back to Jakku. That's just me though.

Finn got a big hero moment when he beat captain phasma, he needed one in TFA and he never got it. Though his plot with Rose could have been better, maybe a little shorter.

I see Rey and Kylo as opposing forces now, literally, the fight between them in TFA makes more sense now, as he gets more powerful, so does she.

The reactions I've seen are interesting, people were mad that TFA was too formulaic, but this one isn't formulaic enough. I like that it deviated from the norm a little.

I think you've pinpointed the subjective arguments people are going to be judging this film on as fanboys; mainstream audiences may be different, but these are the sticking points for debate among those of us who have devoted quite a few more hours to speculation and book reading.

The first part I bolded is going to be an issue for some people, including myself. The Skywalker family now currently sits as more of a curse on the Galaxy than a blessing; out of 3 generations, two of them became the chief enforcers or even leaders of despotic, mass murdering regimes, and the good generation simply paused the damage for 30 years. Since there's no counterpoint to Kylo from the Skywalker family, he may have permanently tilted the legacy towards billions of victims instead of billions of rescuees. Rey is still meant to be his opposite number; they even repeated and amplified the Force-tug-o-war over Anakin's lightsaber to the extent that they split it in half and seemed to show their power was almost exactly equal. And I'll argue the scene in the dark side cave for Rey was an excellent visual representation of the idea that her fixation on her parents was a flaw, and as you and others have argued, communicating that anyone can be a Jedi is a strong idea. But that idea still feels underdeveloped here, in part because they explicitly brought up how Kylo's bloodline does seem to have made him exceptionally powerful (thus begging for some kind of speculation on Rey's own exceptionality), and in part because Rey's fixation on her parents was still the driving internal conflict for her throughout this film.

It feels like there was too much emphasis placed on Rey's parentage and on Kylo's bloodline strength to totally sell the anybody-can-be-a-hero theme, especially in comparison to how it might have gone if her parentage was wrapped up in TFA instead.

Finn's storyline and fight with Phasma feels like the conceptual opposite of his story in TFA; he had a less compelling character arc and had a smaller impact on the central conflict, but he got a perfunctory physical victory that he lacked in TFA. Finn may have lost most of his physical fights in TFA, but his story-arc focused on how an ordinary stormtrooper wound up being the fulcrum of the First Order's defeat through a series of succeedingly more brave and moral choices. In TLJ, he's largely static as a character, and while he does kill Phasma, she's still a bit character who wastes Gwendoline Christie's skills, and the net gain from Finn and Rose's plot is the Resistance's escape plan is found out and they're cornered.

Finn may have the physical victory, but in comparison to TFA, he's stuck in a meandering dead end plot that causes more harm than good.

And you're right about the formulaic argument, but I'd argue some fo the issue I have with TLJ is parts that are as formulaic as TFA. Snoke and his courtroom are effectively just retreads of the Emperor's courtroom in ROTJ, until the end of the scene, which is good, but still means we have this Palpatine rip-off with few unique characteristics in terms of his on-screen history and portrayal. We also have an overarching military conflict that repeats the "survival is victory" theme from ESB, but now it's strung out and has some shaky logic: the Resistance can get out of the FO's effective weapon's range and reach an old planet from the rebellion, but can't share that with it's staff? And the FO has no support ships capable fo providing cover for fighters outside of slow Star Destroyers? At the same time, Luke's story being so morose and somber and kind of pitiable is a definite change in formula, but is still kind of depressing for out old hero until the end, and even then we kind of miss out on a more visceral experience we could have had with him being there.

Its a bit different in some places and similar in others. It's just a matter of whether or not you think its the right degree of each.

[Malachi]

I thought his motivations were quite clear. Ben Solo had a tendency to the Dark Side but he only fully fell when he saw his Master apparently trying to kill him. With Snoke's prompting, he took the Light Side to be a crock and joined forces with those who would stand against it; those who would accept him and make the best use of his powers. Ultimately, though, he's still that scared little boy who, tired of the confusions of the past, wants a new slate free of both Jedi and Snoke, who himself was not afraid of belittling him; one which he could build a new order that makes sense to him. He was willing to give Rey a chance not because he suddenly turned "good" but because he believed her to be fundamentally similar to him.

From where I'm sitting, Kylo Ren is by far the most complex and intricately drawn villain in Star Wars.

It's great that you think so. I guess it's a matter of perspective for me. While you look at Ben and see him as a great character I instead can't overcome the misstakes other must make to get him from point A to point B.
I liked the Kylo and Ren interactions and for me it was Kylos best scenes.

I just can't believe that Leia, Han and Luke would even start teaching Ben if they thought he could turn. Or if they saw even a slight possiblity of that Luke would be vigilant against it and tell Ben about the risk. How his grandfather battled for balance his whole life, Lukes own struggle and so on. As it is now they pretty much handled Ben on a plate to the dark side and then where confussed how it could happen. It reflects very poorly on them. So much that I would even make an argument that Han & Leia where a bigger threat to the universe then Snoke.

EDIT: I took the attempted kill scene the same way that Luke did. Ben was already turned and everything that Kylo said about it was either lies or after constructs to make it easier for himself.

[Koriand'r]

I loved it! I got everything I wanted from a Star Wars film. Hope, rebellion, resistance, inspiration, action, adventure, but most of all, so many surprises! That was the best part. It didn't feel formulaic, conventional or predictable, which were the downfalls of the prequels and The Force Awakens. The comedy didn't feel corny or tacked on either, but organic and fully ingrained in the story without distracting from it. This level of flawless execution is what we should have gotten from Justice League.

[Carabas]

It as more like an episode of REBELS.

That is very high praise indeed.

[Carabas]

Kylo was lying to Rey about her parents.

...

Geez people. Star Wars has simple plots. Stop over thinking it.

Of two minds, you seem to be.

[godisawesome]

It's great that you think so. I guess it's a matter of perspective for me. While you look at Ben and see him as a great character I instead can't overcome the misstakes other must make to get him from point A to point B.
I liked the Kylo and Ren interactions and for me it was Kylos best scenes.

I just can't believe that Leia, Han and Luke would even start teaching Ben if they thought he could turn. Or if they saw even a slight possiblity of that Luke would be vigilant against it and tell Ben about the risk. How his grandfather battled for balance his whole life, Lukes own struggle and so on. As it is now they pretty much handled Ben on a plate to the dark side and then where confussed how it could happen. It reflects very poorly on them. So much that I would even make an argument that Han & Leia where a bigger threat to the universe then Snoke.

EDIT: I took the attempted kill scene the same way that Luke did. Ben was already turned and everything that Kylo said about it was either lies or after constructs to make it easier for himself.

I kind of half agree and disagree; the core scene of Ben's final turn is good character work and a nice balance of tragic circumstances and somewhat understandable reactions from both parties. On the other hand, that was clearly not the full turn at all; Ben was close enough to the edge and charismatic enough that his reaction was start my own dark side group and kill everyone else. We see the point of no return, but not the tipping point, if that makes sense. It's more of a TV show reveal than a movie reveal, if that makes sense. Like, in Arrow, the scene where Slade found out Ollie chose Sara over Slade's crush was the point of no return, but by then Slade was already pretty crazy, emotionally erratic, and pretty bloody minded, and later revealed to already be betraying the group by saving the super-soldier formula.

By the time of Luke and Ben's confrontation, Ben must have already been dabbling in some dark side elements, and Luke must be receiving numerous warning signs. And we still don't know what key event, trauma, or life element put Ben in that place. Snoke is still supposed to have done something, but what?

I kind of feel they should have revealed Snoke's been messing with Ben's perception of reality for a long time, possibly even with Luke's. That would help explain a bit more about Ben's issues as well as provided a more clear reason for Ben turning on Snoke.

[Miles To Go]

The comedy didn't feel corny or tacked on either

Yes it did. Especially at the start. Po dicking around with Hux was right out of the "Mighty Meh-Val Comedy Hour" handbook

This level of flawless execution is what we should have gotten from Justice League.

I didn't like Justice League, but it was miles better than this dog crap as far as execution went.

The prequels look better with every release of the Disney dung

[Overhazard]

I think you've pinpointed the subjective arguments people are going to be judging this film on as fanboys; mainstream audiences may be different, but these are the sticking points for debate among those of us who have devoted quite a few more hours to speculation and book reading.

The first part I bolded is going to be an issue for some people, including myself. The Skywalker family now currently sits as more of a curse on the Galaxy than a blessing; out of 3 generations, two of them became the chief enforcers or even leaders of despotic, mass murdering regimes, and the good generation simply paused the damage for 30 years. Since there's no counterpoint to Kylo from the Skywalker family, he may have permanently tilted the legacy towards billions of victims instead of billions of rescuees. Rey is still meant to be his opposite number; they even repeated and amplified the Force-tug-o-war over Anakin's lightsaber to the extent that they split it in half and seemed to show their power was almost exactly equal. And I'll argue the scene in the dark side cave for Rey was an excellent visual representation of the idea that her fixation on her parents was a flaw, and as you and others have argued, communicating that anyone can be a Jedi is a strong idea. But that idea still feels underdeveloped here, in part because they explicitly brought up how Kylo's bloodline does seem to have made him exceptionally powerful (thus begging for some kind of speculation on Rey's own exceptionality), and in part because Rey's fixation on her parents was still the driving internal conflict for her throughout this film.

It feels like there was too much emphasis placed on Rey's parentage and on Kylo's bloodline strength to totally sell the anybody-can-be-a-hero theme, especially in comparison to how it might have gone if her parentage was wrapped up in TFA instead.

Finn's storyline and fight with Phasma feels like the conceptual opposite of his story in TFA; he had a less compelling character arc and had a smaller impact on the central conflict, but he got a perfunctory physical victory that he lacked in TFA. Finn may have lost most of his physical fights in TFA, but his story-arc focused on how an ordinary stormtrooper wound up being the fulcrum of the First Order's defeat through a series of succeedingly more brave and moral choices. In TLJ, he's largely static as a character, and while he does kill Phasma, she's still a bit character who wastes Gwendoline Christie's skills, and the net gain from Finn and Rose's plot is the Resistance's escape plan is found out and they're cornered.

Finn may have the physical victory, but in comparison to TFA, he's stuck in a meandering dead end plot that causes more harm than good.

And you're right about the formulaic argument, but I'd argue some fo the issue I have with TLJ is parts that are as formulaic as TFA. Snoke and his courtroom are effectively just retreads of the Emperor's courtroom in ROTJ, until the end of the scene, which is good, but still means we have this Palpatine rip-off with few unique characteristics in terms of his on-screen history and portrayal. We also have an overarching military conflict that repeats the "survival is victory" theme from ESB, but now it's strung out and has some shaky logic: the Resistance can get out of the FO's effective weapon's range and reach an old planet from the rebellion, but can't share that with it's staff? And the FO has no support ships capable fo providing cover for fighters outside of slow Star Destroyers? At the same time, Luke's story being so morose and somber and kind of pitiable is a definite change in formula, but is still kind of depressing for out old hero until the end, and even then we kind of miss out on a more visceral experience we could have had with him being there.

Its a bit different in some places and similar in others. It's just a matter of whether or not you think its the right degree of each.

Maybe that's why the Jedi were forbidden from having families and attachments, stuff like this would happen, though one of the Council members had a family, but none of his kids were Force Sensitive.

The main reason that I wanted Rey to be a Kenobi is because it would have brought the original and prequel trilogy full circle. Luke Skywalker training the granddaughter of the man who trained him and his father, and facing down the grandson of Anakin Skywalker would be very poetic, if not predictable. The Skywalker Saga would be wrapped up in a bow and it could leave room for all sorts of new stories.

I was so angry that Finn kept getting beaten up in TFA. It was the bait and switch marketing, I didn't want Finn to outshine Rey, but he was borderline incompetent. He's a trained soldier, he's good with a blaster, he should know how to handle himself in a fight, He doesn't have to be a kung-fu master, just basic self defense stuff, but he kept getting jobbed. I think Captain Phasma is the new Boba Fett. Boba gets a lot of fanfare, despite the fact that he barely does anything in the movies.

I just hope that Abrahms doesn't pull a fast one us and say "Nope, she's a Skywalker after all!" in episode IX.

[Malachi]

I kind of half agree and disagree; the core scene of Ben's final turn is good character work and a nice balance of tragic circumstances and somewhat understandable reactions from both parties. On the other hand, that was clearly not the full turn at all; Ben was close enough to the edge and charismatic enough that his reaction was start my own dark side group and kill everyone else. We see the point of no return, but not the tipping point, if that makes sense. It's more of a TV show reveal than a movie reveal, if that makes sense. Like, in Arrow, the scene where Slade found out Ollie chose Sara over Slade's crush was the point of no return, but by then Slade was already pretty crazy, emotionally erratic, and pretty bloody minded, and later revealed to already be betraying the group by saving the super-soldier formula.

By the time of Luke and Ben's confrontation, Ben must have already been dabbling in some dark side elements, and Luke must be receiving numerous warning signs. And we still don't know what key event, trauma, or life element put Ben in that place. Snoke is still supposed to have done something, but what?

I kind of feel they should have revealed Snoke's been messing with Ben's perception of reality for a long time, possibly even with Luke's. That would help explain a bit more about Ben's issues as well as provided a more clear reason for Ben turning on Snoke.

Yes some degrees of grey could be attributed to that scene, witch makes it even better. In that case us not knowing 100% works wonders.

In case of Snoke affecting both Luke and Ben for a longer period makes more sense. Especially if has hidden Bens darker impulses from Luke for months or even years. It then more comes down to how skilled snoke is vs Luke. Witch is plausible. The problem is that these are all fan theories. What we got from the movies don’t address it. They just lets us know that Ben was possible to turn to the dark side and that it either happened right in front of Luke or he was tipped before Luke started training him. Either way how much corruption you attribute to what time point Luke still messed up in a big way. He either started teaching an adept who was conflicted enough to turn or he let it happen on his watch. If jedis can’t sense these things then it becomes such a gamble training people that it’s insane and should probably be avoided in the first place.

[ClanAskani]

Kylo was lying to Rey about her parents.

That's what I think. He was trying to manipulate her. That's not to say her parents are really someone notable, but they may not have sold her off for drinking money or whatever.

What left a very sour taste in my mouth with TLJ was how the whole Skywalker family's story has been treated. Luke and Leia accomplished nothing, Luke hide out on an island then "died". Maybe he pulls a Gandalf the White and comes back, but now Rey is without a teacher.

The Jedi need to die off, so what's the point in Rey becoming a Jedi? Why would kids want to be Jedi? And why should Rey bother stealing the books if the order should cease to exist? Why should I continue to care about the Jedi after that movie?

I think there's got to be some sort of twist in the next movie, but honestly I don't care about seeing it.