Yoda showed up as a Force Ghost and blew up a tree with his finger.
Luke demonstrated one of the most powerful displays of the Force we've seen on film.
I think Force Ghost Luke is a lock at this point. Heck, maybe he's learned how to teleport? But I'm betting on Force Ghost.
Rey can learn from Luke's failures and rebuild a new Jedi Order free and clear from the Skywalkers. I still think she's gonna end up being one but now I'm thinking she may just not be. That might work better narratively. Heck, she could even make a new Froce group.
Last edited by BeastieRunner; 12-15-2017 at 12:54 PM.
"Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium
Luke managed to do OK with minimal training/self-training himself (As Yoda said "Already know you, that what you need"), although the prequels seemed to indicate Jedis went through *decades* of training....
As for Phasma, giving her less screen time seemed a bit puzzling, especially since Kathleen Kennedy seemed to state she'd be a growing character going forward, and she even got a novel and comic book fairly recently...but nope.
Kind of funny that Kylo did pretty much finish what Vader started, or rather, seemed to covet-ruling the galaxy his own way. In both ROTS and ESB Vader plans to rule the galaxy by overthrowing the Emperor, but his injuries kind of keep him under the Emperor's thumb until Luke shows up. Of course, he eventually did, but more out of selflessness, as he knew it would kill him....Ren doesn't so much want to be like his grandfather, perhaps, but to surpass him.
Last edited by ChrisIII; 12-15-2017 at 12:17 PM.
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I'm going to have to give this movie to "C". I feel sorry for Finn. His part of the movie felt like filler.
All that build-up and Snoke went out like a chump.
Phasma went out like a chump. You could actually hear all the eyes in the theater rolling at once when she went the whole a "quick death is too good for them" route.
Snoke went out like a chump. All that build up for nothing.
Luke went out like a chump. You know before this I heard rumors that Mark was not very happy with how he was portrayed in the script and after seeing this movie I am inclined to believe those rumors now.
Kylo Ren is once again punked. He was almost killed by one of Snoke's henchman. Let me repeat that, he was almost killed by one of his henchmen. Luckily Rey was there to save him.
What I don't really get, why is there the need to distance the franchise from the Skywalkers?
My brother saw it this morning and his whole take was Disney telling fans: Like Luke Skywalker? Well, F*** you , he's a failure! Buy our new heroes instead.
Luke also mentioned that the Old Jedi Order used the training out of vanity. They held down people because of it. Rey might get to reboot the Jedi from the OG up now.
He had more buildup and went out better than the Emperor.
A duel and some cool moments in said duel is a chump? How do you feel about a blind guy accidentally killing somebody?
Yoda died in his sleep.
Luke made a hard Force astral projection of himself, saved the Resistance, and got to go in peace. It's on par with Obi-Wan sacrificing himself to save the Rebellion.
You keep saying chump. My inner Inigo Montoya says you don't know what that word means.
Mark stated in interviews prior he was shocked, appalled, and not happy about the direction of Luke. They weren't rumors. He warmed to it and thought it was bold, different, and a challenge as an actor.
6 henchmen. Learn to count. That may or may not have been the 6 Jedi Kylo took with him from Luke's Academy.
Getting a teamwork lightsaber assist is better than going out like a chump, right? Via blaster to the back by your trusted soliders, right?
Lots of Star Wars fans on this forum and all over the net wanted no more Skywalkers and something different. They seem to have gotten both and are now not happy. It's not surprising to me watching all the crazy Star Wars over reactions over the years.
Last edited by BeastieRunner; 12-15-2017 at 12:48 PM.
"Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium
Honestly if they truly wanted to go with the "anyone can be a hero" thing, then Finn should have been the main hero of these films. Or Poe, or Rose, etc. Basically someone "normal." Because that argument falls flat when Rey is basically someone who was fortunate enough to be BORN (she didn't do anything to earn them even) with magic powers. Not just any magic powers, but super-duper magic powers far beyond what we've seen before.
She's about as far from "normal" as you can get.
I don't know why people think Rey's parents have to be someone special. It's like when TFA was announced and people were wondering if Rey was related to Obi-Wan or the Skywalkers and if Finn was related to Mace Windu or Lando. Why does everyone have to be connected? The galaxy's a big place...
Aside from some minor nitpicks, I enjoyed the movie though (I'm still waiting for them to really cut loose with a lightsaber duel, seems like they're afraid of giving us one)
What is it with fans and their adoration for the Skywalker bloodline?
Even if you just count the 6 Lucas movies and disregard the Disney ones, the Skywalkers have done a lot more evil than they have done good. And even if you chuck in the old EU it's about 50% odds any given Skywalker will turn into a Vader.
There's still another movie that will end the "Who is Rey?" debate but I'm warming to her maybe not being a Skywalker but I still think based TFA and the fact JJ is coming back, that will be his big reveal.
As for lightsaber duels, I'm sure we're going to get one in IX. Kyle vs. Rey with whatever new saber she constructs out of the Skywalker legacy.
If this is the end goal, Rey Nobody, Rey from Nowhere, I agree.
I see where you're coming from but disagree.
Skywalkers are looking to bring balance to the Force by resetting it all to point zero.
2 Sith vs. hundreds or even thousands of Jedi? That is not Ying and Yang.
The Force is coming back into balance now.
Rey is not perfect, she's messed up A TON already. How is she a Mary Sue? I don't think people know what that phrase means.
Luke was one too, then if people are still on Rey being one. And they wanted heroic, PERFECT Luke Skywalker to comeback and save the day? Talk about wish fulfillment.
Last edited by BeastieRunner; 12-15-2017 at 01:23 PM.
"Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium
How does Rey not being a Skywalker crap all over their family and legacy?
It's not as if the Skywalkers are the only powerful force users around. You don't have to be part of that bloodline to be a badass. Mace, Obi-Wan and Sidious' bloodlines weren't anything special and look at how powerful they were. It happens.
After mulling it over for a few days I'd say that I really like this movie. It has a more satisfying and complete ending than The Force Awakens, and it has a much better third act in general.
But the middle is so disjointed and the flaws of this movie are more noticable to me. The stuff with Rey, Luke and Kylo Ren is all great. But the story with getting the BDT's character just doesn't really fit in at all with the story. I'm disappointed by how much smaller Finn's role was this time around. I mean, he got to do stuff but most of it ended up not helping at all and his character arc was rather unfocused with little buildup to his showdown with Captain Phasma (who is once against underused). Rose is fine as a character, but like Finn she's stuck in the worst part of the story.
And the most annoying thing is that the whole subplot they had going could've been avoided if Holdo had just told them her plan. There was no reason at all not to. Now tons of people died because Finn, Poe and Rose screwed up which could've easily been avoided. Hell, it could've give us a really interesting other story where the increasingly diminished resistance try to keep up their hope and positive thinking while slowly being picked off ship by ship.
Oh well, even in this poor thought out part of the story, the acting is good enough to still be engaging and it has entertaining moments, and I do kinda like that the wild plan from the odd balls didn't work for once. That's my kind of jam.
I really like the theme of the old making way for the new to grow and prosper and how that can work in both good and bad ways. Luke and Rey played off each other really well (grumpy old man Luke is freaking great). They had the most engaging character arcs, along with Kylo Ren, I was really satisfied with how things played out for them in the end.
I still love Kylo Ren and I thought his part in this movie was fantastic. His rise to power and plan to eradicate all thing old notions of jedi and sith and rebels and the empire played into the movie's themes really well. I'm really looking forward to see the end goal for his story.
The action set pieces in the third act were all fantastic and I couldn't stop grinning. The mass light saber fight after Snoke's death was intense and brutal. The battle on the salt fields was a visual spectacle. Luke's last stand was kinda perfect and made sense in the story. I was afraid that the movie was going to run for a bit too long after Snoke died, but that's when it got to the best part of the whole.
Besides the third act I also loved Leia using the force to fly through space, she looked damn majestic doing so, and ghost Yoda was a riot. I also feel that Hux deserves some mention, he just delightfully awful and a very entertaining villain.
I do hope that Rey's parents really are just regular Jakku-nobodies. That's just the kind of thing that I'm a sucker for, and Snoke dying without any explanation for who he is worked just for me for the same reason.
So yeah, the middle part is disjointed enough to be annoying. But there are plenty of positives that makes up for it. It's less of an immediate thrill ride than The Force Awakens, but the interesting themes and great character work for Rey, Luke and Kylo Ren get me engaged and entertained and led to a more satisfying ending. I really enjoyed it.
Some of it is just conditioning, especially for old Legends fans; if you've spent over a decade reading, watching, listening, and playing the story of a family that changes the Galaxy-- and eventually for the better by ending the Empire. Even in the current canon, we've got 6 films with Skywalkers as the protagonists, and at least one cartoon series, and even with the new trilogy, Kylo seems to at least count as a Deuteragonist, especially in TLJ. Regular fans have a Skywalker at the heart of the majority of the films they'll watch, and hardcore fans have hours more.
The other reason that I have is because I kind of saw the ST as possibly being the final deciding factor in the "What is the Skywalker legacy?" question. The PT showed how Anakin was key to the Dark Times of the Empire (Skywalker legacy is one of terror and destruction). The OT showed Luke as striking a blow for light side, and by reaching out to his father, at least ending the Empire's reign of terror and potentially redeeming the family name by his own actions (Skywalker legacy can be one of redemption and heroism). And if you were me, a major Rey Skywalker supporter, then you viewed Rey vs Ren as being a fight over that legacy, particularly when ever they do the tug-o-war over Anakin's lightsaber (a weapon used by Jedi heroes Luke and Anakin, but also used by Darth Vader). And if you were a Legends fan, this imitates what you're conditioned to expect from Jacen "Darth Caedus" Solo fighting Jaina "Sword of the Jedi" Solo.
Having said that, I am of the opinion that the issue of Rey's parentage should be settled here in favor of Rey, Daughter of Nobody Important. Johnson worked hard to try and establish that Rey's fixation on the question was a weakness, including with the dark side cave scene in TLJ (great visual representation of the idea, even if I disagree with the idea itself). And the end of the film, with the little kid using the Force, seem to reinforce the idea that this trilogy is trying to expand the saga beyond the Skywalkers, and excite the audience with a "anybody could have the Force" idea. If JJ Abrams tried to go back to Rey, Daughter of Someone Significant, it would feel like a retcon a step worse than the infamous "from a certain point of view" explanation in ROTJ.
Don't get me wrong; I still personally regard the potential of Rey skywalker as being more economically powerful (Mama Skywalker would probably be a major inter-trilogy character, Luke gets a romance story between trilogies, the aforementioned fight between Rey and Ren over what the Skywalkers are). But this film took serious time to try and set up its answer, and any attempt to pull another twist later would be kind of stupid.
Last edited by godisawesome; 12-15-2017 at 01:44 PM.
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