Star Wars The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

[BeastieRunner]

Of two minds, you seem to be.

Yes and no.

Lying isn't a complex plot twist.

Rey being Rey Nobody, Rey from Nowhere would be fine but I still think we'll get a parentage reveal in IX.

[BeastieRunner]

That's what I think. He was trying to manipulate her. That's not to say her parents are really someone notable, but they may not have sold her off for drinking money or whatever.

What left a very sour taste in my mouth with TLJ was how the whole Skywalker family's story has been treated. Luke and Leia accomplished nothing, Luke hide out on an island then "died". Maybe he pulls a Gandalf the White and comes back, but now Rey is without a teacher.

The Jedi need to die off, so what's the point in Rey becoming a Jedi? Why would kids want to be Jedi? And why should Rey bother stealing the books if the order should cease to exist? Why should I continue to care about the Jedi after that movie?

I think there's got to be some sort of twist in the next movie, but honestly I don't care about seeing it.

Yoda showed up as a Force Ghost and blew up a tree with his finger.

Luke demonstrated one of the most powerful displays of the Force we've seen on film.

I think Force Ghost Luke is a lock at this point. Heck, maybe he's learned how to teleport? But I'm betting on Force Ghost.

Rey can learn from Luke's failures and rebuild a new Jedi Order free and clear from the Skywalkers. I still think she's gonna end up being one but now I'm thinking she may just not be. That might work better narratively. Heck, she could even make a new Froce group.

[ChrisIII]

Luke managed to do OK with minimal training/self-training himself (As Yoda said "Already know you, that what you need"), although the prequels seemed to indicate Jedis went through *decades* of training....


As for Phasma, giving her less screen time seemed a bit puzzling, especially since Kathleen Kennedy seemed to state she'd be a growing character going forward, and she even got a novel and comic book fairly recently...but nope.


Kind of funny that Kylo did pretty much finish what Vader started, or rather, seemed to covet-ruling the galaxy his own way. In both ROTS and ESB Vader plans to rule the galaxy by overthrowing the Emperor, but his injuries kind of keep him under the Emperor's thumb until Luke shows up. Of course, he eventually did, but more out of selflessness, as he knew it would kill him....Ren doesn't so much want to be like his grandfather, perhaps, but to surpass him.

[Anthony W]

I'm going to have to give this movie to "C". I feel sorry for Finn. His part of the movie felt like filler.

All that build-up and Snoke went out like a chump.

Phasma went out like a chump. You could actually hear all the eyes in the theater rolling at once when she went the whole a "quick death is too good for them" route.

Snoke went out like a chump. All that build up for nothing.

Luke went out like a chump. You know before this I heard rumors that Mark was not very happy with how he was portrayed in the script and after seeing this movie I am inclined to believe those rumors now.

Kylo Ren is once again punked. He was almost killed by one of Snoke's henchman. Let me repeat that, he was almost killed by one of his henchmen. Luckily Rey was there to save him.

[ClanAskani]

What I don't really get, why is there the need to distance the franchise from the Skywalkers?

My brother saw it this morning and his whole take was Disney telling fans: Like Luke Skywalker? Well, F*** you , he's a failure! Buy our new heroes instead.

[BeastieRunner]

Luke managed to do OK with minimal training/self-training himself (As Yoda said "Already know you, that what you need"), although the prequels seemed to indicate Jedis went through *decades* of training....

Luke also mentioned that the Old Jedi Order used the training out of vanity. They held down people because of it. Rey might get to reboot the Jedi from the OG up now.

All that build-up and Snoke went out like a chump.

He had more buildup and went out better than the Emperor.

Phasma went out like a chump.

A duel and some cool moments in said duel is a chump? How do you feel about a blind guy accidentally killing somebody?

Luke went out like a chump.

Yoda died in his sleep.

Luke made a hard Force astral projection of himself, saved the Resistance, and got to go in peace. It's on par with Obi-Wan sacrificing himself to save the Rebellion.

You keep saying chump. My inner Inigo Montoya says you don't know what that word means.

You know before this I heard rumors that Mark was not very happy with how he was portrayed in the script and after seeing this movie I am inclined to believe those rumors now.

Mark stated in interviews prior he was shocked, appalled, and not happy about the direction of Luke. They weren't rumors. He warmed to it and thought it was bold, different, and a challenge as an actor.

Kylo Ren is once again punked. He was almost killed by one of Snoke's henchman. Let me repeat that, he was almost killed by one of his henchmen. Luckily Rey was there to save him.

6 henchmen. Learn to count. That may or may not have been the 6 Jedi Kylo took with him from Luke's Academy.

Getting a teamwork lightsaber assist is better than going out like a chump, right? Via blaster to the back by your trusted soliders, right?

What I don't really get, why is there the need to distance the franchise from the Skywalkers?

My brother saw it this morning and his whole take was Disney telling fans: Like Luke Skywalker? Well, F*** you , he's a failure! Buy our new heroes instead.

Lots of Star Wars fans on this forum and all over the net wanted no more Skywalkers and something different. They seem to have gotten both and are now not happy. It's not surprising to me watching all the crazy Star Wars over reactions over the years.

[Punisher007]

I think you've pinpointed the subjective arguments people are going to be judging this film on as fanboys; mainstream audiences may be different, but these are the sticking points for debate among those of us who have devoted quite a few more hours to speculation and book reading.

The first part I bolded is going to be an issue for some people, including myself. The Skywalker family now currently sits as more of a curse on the Galaxy than a blessing; out of 3 generations, two of them became the chief enforcers or even leaders of despotic, mass murdering regimes, and the good generation simply paused the damage for 30 years. Since there's no counterpoint to Kylo from the Skywalker family, he may have permanently tilted the legacy towards billions of victims instead of billions of rescuees. Rey is still meant to be his opposite number; they even repeated and amplified the Force-tug-o-war over Anakin's lightsaber to the extent that they split it in half and seemed to show their power was almost exactly equal. And I'll argue the scene in the dark side cave for Rey was an excellent visual representation of the idea that her fixation on her parents was a flaw, and as you and others have argued, communicating that anyone can be a Jedi is a strong idea. But that idea still feels underdeveloped here, in part because they explicitly brought up how Kylo's bloodline does seem to have made him exceptionally powerful (thus begging for some kind of speculation on Rey's own exceptionality), and in part because Rey's fixation on her parents was still the driving internal conflict for her throughout this film.

It feels like there was too much emphasis placed on Rey's parentage and on Kylo's bloodline strength to totally sell the anybody-can-be-a-hero theme, especially in comparison to how it might have gone if her parentage was wrapped up in TFA instead.

Finn's storyline and fight with Phasma feels like the conceptual opposite of his story in TFA; he had a less compelling character arc and had a smaller impact on the central conflict, but he got a perfunctory physical victory that he lacked in TFA. Finn may have lost most of his physical fights in TFA, but his story-arc focused on how an ordinary stormtrooper wound up being the fulcrum of the First Order's defeat through a series of succeedingly more brave and moral choices. In TLJ, he's largely static as a character, and while he does kill Phasma, she's still a bit character who wastes Gwendoline Christie's skills, and the net gain from Finn and Rose's plot is the Resistance's escape plan is found out and they're cornered.

Finn may have the physical victory, but in comparison to TFA, he's stuck in a meandering dead end plot that causes more harm than good.

And you're right about the formulaic argument, but I'd argue some fo the issue I have with TLJ is parts that are as formulaic as TFA. Snoke and his courtroom are effectively just retreads of the Emperor's courtroom in ROTJ, until the end of the scene, which is good, but still means we have this Palpatine rip-off with few unique characteristics in terms of his on-screen history and portrayal. We also have an overarching military conflict that repeats the "survival is victory" theme from ESB, but now it's strung out and has some shaky logic: the Resistance can get out of the FO's effective weapon's range and reach an old planet from the rebellion, but can't share that with it's staff? And the FO has no support ships capable fo providing cover for fighters outside of slow Star Destroyers? At the same time, Luke's story being so morose and somber and kind of pitiable is a definite change in formula, but is still kind of depressing for out old hero until the end, and even then we kind of miss out on a more visceral experience we could have had with him being there.

Its a bit different in some places and similar in others. It's just a matter of whether or not you think its the right degree of each.

Honestly if they truly wanted to go with the "anyone can be a hero" thing, then Finn should have been the main hero of these films. Or Poe, or Rose, etc. Basically someone "normal." Because that argument falls flat when Rey is basically someone who was fortunate enough to be BORN (she didn't do anything to earn them even) with magic powers. Not just any magic powers, but super-duper magic powers far beyond what we've seen before.

She's about as far from "normal" as you can get.

[Xero Kaiser]

I don't know why people think Rey's parents have to be someone special. It's like when TFA was announced and people were wondering if Rey was related to Obi-Wan or the Skywalkers and if Finn was related to Mace Windu or Lando. Why does everyone have to be connected? The galaxy's a big place...

Aside from some minor nitpicks, I enjoyed the movie though (I'm still waiting for them to really cut loose with a lightsaber duel, seems like they're afraid of giving us one)

[Punisher007]

I don't know why people think Rey's parents have to be someone special. It's like when TFA was announced and people were wondering if Rey was related to Obi-Wan or the Skywalkers and if Finn was related to Mace Windu or Lando. Why does everyone have to be connected? The galaxy's a big place...

Aside from some minor nitpicks, I enjoyed the movie though (I'm still waiting for them to really cut loose with a lightsaber duel, seems like they're afraid of giving us one)

Because it makes keeping them so secret for years feel totally pointless. And it further craps all over the Skywalker family and their legacy. And it only adds fuel to the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument.

[Carabas]

What is it with fans and their adoration for the Skywalker bloodline?

Even if you just count the 6 Lucas movies and disregard the Disney ones, the Skywalkers have done a lot more evil than they have done good. And even if you chuck in the old EU it's about 50% odds any given Skywalker will turn into a Vader.

[BeastieRunner]

I don't know why people think Rey's parents have to be someone special. It's like when TFA was announced and people were wondering if Rey was related to Obi-Wan or the Skywalkers and if Finn was related to Mace Windu or Lando. Why does everyone have to be connected? The galaxy's a big place...

Aside from some minor nitpicks, I enjoyed the movie though (I'm still waiting for them to really cut loose with a lightsaber duel, seems like they're afraid of giving us one)

There's still another movie that will end the "Who is Rey?" debate but I'm warming to her maybe not being a Skywalker but I still think based TFA and the fact JJ is coming back, that will be his big reveal.

As for lightsaber duels, I'm sure we're going to get one in IX. Kyle vs. Rey with whatever new saber she constructs out of the Skywalker legacy.

Because it makes keeping them so secret for years feel totally pointless.

If this is the end goal, Rey Nobody, Rey from Nowhere, I agree.

And it further craps all over the Skywalker family and their legacy.

I see where you're coming from but disagree.

Skywalkers are looking to bring balance to the Force by resetting it all to point zero.

2 Sith vs. hundreds or even thousands of Jedi? That is not Ying and Yang.

The Force is coming back into balance now.

And it only adds fuel to the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument.

Rey is not perfect, she's messed up A TON already. How is she a Mary Sue? I don't think people know what that phrase means.

Luke was one too, then if people are still on Rey being one. And they wanted heroic, PERFECT Luke Skywalker to comeback and save the day? Talk about wish fulfillment.

[Overhazard]

What is it with fans and their adoration for the Skywalker bloodline?

Even if you just count the 6 Lucas movies and disregard the Disney ones, the Skywalkers have done a lot more evil than they have done good. And even if you chuck in the old EU it's about 50% odds any given Skywalker will turn into a Vader.

Which is why I'm glad Rey isn't a Skywalker. I also hope it stays that way and J.J. Abrams doesn't pull a fast one on us in episode IX.

[Xero Kaiser]

Because it makes keeping them so secret for years feel totally pointless. And it further craps all over the Skywalker family and their legacy. And it only adds fuel to the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument.

How does Rey not being a Skywalker crap all over their family and legacy?

It's not as if the Skywalkers are the only powerful force users around. You don't have to be part of that bloodline to be a badass. Mace, Obi-Wan and Sidious' bloodlines weren't anything special and look at how powerful they were. It happens.

[Dark Soul # 7]

After mulling it over for a few days I'd say that I really like this movie. It has a more satisfying and complete ending than The Force Awakens, and it has a much better third act in general.

But the middle is so disjointed and the flaws of this movie are more noticable to me. The stuff with Rey, Luke and Kylo Ren is all great. But the story with getting the BDT's character just doesn't really fit in at all with the story. I'm disappointed by how much smaller Finn's role was this time around. I mean, he got to do stuff but most of it ended up not helping at all and his character arc was rather unfocused with little buildup to his showdown with Captain Phasma (who is once against underused). Rose is fine as a character, but like Finn she's stuck in the worst part of the story.

And the most annoying thing is that the whole subplot they had going could've been avoided if Holdo had just told them her plan. There was no reason at all not to. Now tons of people died because Finn, Poe and Rose screwed up which could've easily been avoided. Hell, it could've give us a really interesting other story where the increasingly diminished resistance try to keep up their hope and positive thinking while slowly being picked off ship by ship.

Oh well, even in this poor thought out part of the story, the acting is good enough to still be engaging and it has entertaining moments, and I do kinda like that the wild plan from the odd balls didn't work for once. That's my kind of jam.

I really like the theme of the old making way for the new to grow and prosper and how that can work in both good and bad ways. Luke and Rey played off each other really well (grumpy old man Luke is freaking great). They had the most engaging character arcs, along with Kylo Ren, I was really satisfied with how things played out for them in the end.

I still love Kylo Ren and I thought his part in this movie was fantastic. His rise to power and plan to eradicate all thing old notions of jedi and sith and rebels and the empire played into the movie's themes really well. I'm really looking forward to see the end goal for his story.

The action set pieces in the third act were all fantastic and I couldn't stop grinning. The mass light saber fight after Snoke's death was intense and brutal. The battle on the salt fields was a visual spectacle. Luke's last stand was kinda perfect and made sense in the story. I was afraid that the movie was going to run for a bit too long after Snoke died, but that's when it got to the best part of the whole.

Besides the third act I also loved Leia using the force to fly through space, she looked damn majestic doing so, and ghost Yoda was a riot. I also feel that Hux deserves some mention, he just delightfully awful and a very entertaining villain.

I do hope that Rey's parents really are just regular Jakku-nobodies. That's just the kind of thing that I'm a sucker for, and Snoke dying without any explanation for who he is worked just for me for the same reason.

So yeah, the middle part is disjointed enough to be annoying. But there are plenty of positives that makes up for it. It's less of an immediate thrill ride than The Force Awakens, but the interesting themes and great character work for Rey, Luke and Kylo Ren get me engaged and entertained and led to a more satisfying ending. I really enjoyed it.

[godisawesome]

What is it with fans and their adoration for the Skywalker bloodline?

Even if you just count the 6 Lucas movies and disregard the Disney ones, the Skywalkers have done a lot more evil than they have done good. And even if you chuck in the old EU it's about 50% odds any given Skywalker will turn into a Vader.

Some of it is just conditioning, especially for old Legends fans; if you've spent over a decade reading, watching, listening, and playing the story of a family that changes the Galaxy-- and eventually for the better by ending the Empire. Even in the current canon, we've got 6 films with Skywalkers as the protagonists, and at least one cartoon series, and even with the new trilogy, Kylo seems to at least count as a Deuteragonist, especially in TLJ. Regular fans have a Skywalker at the heart of the majority of the films they'll watch, and hardcore fans have hours more.

The other reason that I have is because I kind of saw the ST as possibly being the final deciding factor in the "What is the Skywalker legacy?" question. The PT showed how Anakin was key to the Dark Times of the Empire (Skywalker legacy is one of terror and destruction). The OT showed Luke as striking a blow for light side, and by reaching out to his father, at least ending the Empire's reign of terror and potentially redeeming the family name by his own actions (Skywalker legacy can be one of redemption and heroism). And if you were me, a major Rey Skywalker supporter, then you viewed Rey vs Ren as being a fight over that legacy, particularly when ever they do the tug-o-war over Anakin's lightsaber (a weapon used by Jedi heroes Luke and Anakin, but also used by Darth Vader). And if you were a Legends fan, this imitates what you're conditioned to expect from Jacen "Darth Caedus" Solo fighting Jaina "Sword of the Jedi" Solo.

Having said that, I am of the opinion that the issue of Rey's parentage should be settled here in favor of Rey, Daughter of Nobody Important. Johnson worked hard to try and establish that Rey's fixation on the question was a weakness, including with the dark side cave scene in TLJ (great visual representation of the idea, even if I disagree with the idea itself). And the end of the film, with the little kid using the Force, seem to reinforce the idea that this trilogy is trying to expand the saga beyond the Skywalkers, and excite the audience with a "anybody could have the Force" idea. If JJ Abrams tried to go back to Rey, Daughter of Someone Significant, it would feel like a retcon a step worse than the infamous "from a certain point of view" explanation in ROTJ.

Don't get me wrong; I still personally regard the potential of Rey skywalker as being more economically powerful (Mama Skywalker would probably be a major inter-trilogy character, Luke gets a romance story between trilogies, the aforementioned fight between Rey and Ren over what the Skywalkers are). But this film took serious time to try and set up its answer, and any attempt to pull another twist later would be kind of stupid.