Star Wars The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

[AngryComicBookNerd]

Mostly the Aftermath novels and the game Battlefront 2 (so you can't be faulted for not having a total picture if you haven't gone out of your way to get the info). They may have touched on it in the Journey to the Force Awakens comic, but I barely remember that one because I thought it was pretty boring (though if you want to learn more about Poe's mom that's where you'll find it).

But the Resistance and New Republic's relationship is very quickly mentioned in TFA.

Having very relevant information delegated to the books is kind of a cheap move, but I guess going over the galactic power dynamics wasn't something Abrams was interested in doing. Possibly due to the critiques of the PT.

A money grab.... dammit I missed that. Now it makes total sense. Not the plot, that's still screwy to me but only because I haven't spent the money on all the comics and games. It's not like I haven't read any of the comics or novels or whatever either. But those don't count cause they were all pre-Disney and we all know anything that happened back then doesn't mean crud anymore.

Well thank you for explaining. I don't like the explanation. But I do appreciate the help.

[AngryComicBookNerd]

Close.
She called him scum, and he proudly proclaimed himself to be Rebel Scum.

GAHHH!!! I was so close to sounding smart... right? maybe? perhaps from a certain point of view? oh well...

[godisawesome]

You're filling in blanks that don't exist.

The First Order IS the Empire. The death of the Emporer and the Destruction of the 2nd Deathstar didn't destroy the Empire anymore than the destruction of the first Deathstar did.

The First Order was a fanatical sect of the Empire that took over control of the power vaccum left by the fall of the Emporer. They didn't have create anything new, they just fell back, licked their wounds and existed in a state of cold war with the New Republic.

The New republic consisted quite literally of the one solar system we saw wiped out. All they had was a foothold, and existed as a nuisance. The Resistance worked in concert with the NR, but didn't have any concrete ties. Functionally the Resistance is a continuation of the Rebellion, while the NR was a wholly new entity with very little actual power.

...That's not quite how it goes, either in the original interpretation they were working with during The Force Awakens or even the reformatted version they designed to appease Rian Johnson's vision after TFA, starting with the release of Bloodline.

Even in the TLJ version designed to make the immediate domination of the First Order more plausible be deliberately shrinking the New Republic, the New Republic is much larger than one solar system, though I can see why people might see it that way. The New Republic includes numerous systems across the Galaxy, including other Core Worlds like Chandrila with huge populations, and planets like Kashykk and Mon Cala mentioned as well. It *is* supposed to be smaller than either the Empire or the Republic, and to have the majority of its bureaucracy and military forces wiped out in the Hosnian System.

BUT! this is where the accusations of bad plotting and lore building come in; even the reduced and downplayed New Republic would not, using real world logic and logistical needs, have the *entirety* of its military forces stationed in one comparatively small area in a Galaxy like a solar system, no matter how much they want that to be true. Arguing their capital ships and the cream of their officer corps is gone would be accurate. But you'd have numerous light patrol craft and probably thousands of starfighters stationed everywhere, and significant retried/reserved/training officers in the rest of the Galaxy. And, as part of their attempt to make sure the New Repiblic was small enough to be wiped out, significant numbers of world's both in and outside of the New Republic were pushing for decentralization because they feared a centralized autocracy... Which means that logically, on some level, they'd pursue planetary and system scale security forces themselves. Again, nothing big enough to qualify as a ship-of-the-line, but you'd have significant forces still in the game.

And politically speaking, the idea of a Galaxy rolling over after TFA is laughable; there's whole species, planets, and populations that will know that they're probably targeted for slavery or genocide under a New Empire, so you're going to see the Mon Cala, the Wookies, the Twi-leks, Chandrila, and all remaining Alderanian descendants arrayed against the First Order. Or you *should.* And that's not taking into account that political nations have enough inertia to survive most decapitation attacks, especially against a foreign power-- unless they are directly occupied by an opponent, which brings us into our next problem.

The First Order was not *technically* in a Cold War with the New Republic until 5 years ago... Because even in the TLJ-friendly material, the original Imperial Remnant they were formed from was hidden in total seclusion within the Unknown Regions, only gaining their main Galaxy foothold when the Centrist planets seceded from the Republic 5 years ago. The Unknown Regions First Order force is still supposed to be formed from a hidden section of Imperial military forces that disappeared there, and the main Galaxy portion is still supposed to have had to engage in its arms race with the New Republic in secrecy (this is why Poe is shown shocked at the size of the Star Destroyer hangar in TFA).

The issue, lore wise, is that this means that even in Johnson's customized Galactic set-up, the First Order has access only to the resources of a territory forged from a minority party breaking from a not-quite Galactic Republic combined with the logically still new and only-so-many-planets-they-can-occupy-and-man in the Unknown regions with strictly a military force for 30 years. Don't get me wrong; it's still huge... But it's not "Monopoly on manpower and resources owned by a Galactic Empire formed from the military forces required to win a Galactic scale false flag war" huge. And we know that was still just barely enough to hold onto the Empire for a year after Palpatine died.

So... Either the film is badly written because it expects us to accept an implausible scenario wherein the Republic is truly wiped out after one attack and the First Order has Imperial-sized resources because they were too lazy to use logic for a more interesting scenario... Or the film is badly written in comparison to TFA because we are seeing the *bulk* of First Order forces here, and these written-to-be-more-incompetent idiots in this film wasted half their resources because they couldn't pursue or cut off antique equipment and because no one in Star Wars history has ever tried a hyperspace ram.

Which is why it's a shame Johnson didn't follow Abrams and the Story Group's attempt to make the First Order a smaller, leaner, but sharper and more efficient antagonist in TFA. *That* would have been new and interesting.

[Hiromi]

So, last three days in a row the movie's seen an actual increase in revenue compared to last week, and not an insignificant one either(+27.4%, +36.9%, +29.3% respectively), so it seems any significant dropoff talk was very premature

[DrNewGod]

...this is where the accusations of bad plotting and lore building come in; even the reduced and downplayed New Republic would not, using real world logic and logistical needs, have the *entirety* of its military forces stationed in one comparatively small area in a Galaxy like a solar system, no matter how much they want that to be true. Arguing their capital ships and the cream of their officer corps is gone would be accurate. But you'd have numerous light patrol craft and probably thousands of starfighters stationed everywhere, and significant retried/reserved/training officers in the rest of the Galaxy. And, as part of their attempt to make sure the New Repiblic was small enough to be wiped out, significant numbers of world's both in and outside of the New Republic were pushing for decentralization because they feared a centralized autocracy... Which means that logically, on some level, they'd pursue planetary and system scale security forces themselves. Again, nothing big enough to qualify as a ship-of-the-line, but you'd have significant forces still in the game.

And politically speaking, the idea of a Galaxy rolling over after TFA is laughable; there's whole species, planets, and populations that will know that they're probably targeted for slavery or genocide under a New Empire, so you're going to see the Mon Cala, the Wookies, the Twi-leks, Chandrila, and all remaining Alderanian descendants arrayed against the First Order. Or you *should.* And that's not taking into account that political nations have enough inertia to survive most decapitation attacks, especially against a foreign power-- unless they are directly occupied by an opponent, which brings us into our next problem.

The First Order was not *technically* in a Cold War with the New Republic until 5 years ago... Because even in the TLJ-friendly material, the original Imperial Remnant they were formed from was hidden in total seclusion within the Unknown Regions, only gaining their main Galaxy foothold when the Centrist planets seceded from the Republic 5 years ago. The Unknown Regions First Order force is still supposed to be formed from a hidden section of Imperial military forces that disappeared there, and the main Galaxy portion is still supposed to have had to engage in its arms race with the New Republic in secrecy (this is why Poe is shown shocked at the size of the Star Destroyer hangar in TFA).

The issue, lore wise, is that this means that even in Johnson's customized Galactic set-up, the First Order has access only to the resources of a territory forged from a minority party breaking from a not-quite Galactic Republic combined with the logically still new and only-so-many-planets-they-can-occupy-and-man in the Unknown regions with strictly a military force for 30 years. Don't get me wrong; it's still huge... But it's not "Monopoly on manpower and resources owned by a Galactic Empire formed from the military forces required to win a Galactic scale false flag war" huge. And we know that was still just barely enough to hold onto the Empire for a year after Palpatine died.

So... Either the film is badly written because it expects us to accept an implausible scenario wherein the Republic is truly wiped out after one attack and the First Order has Imperial-sized resources because they were too lazy to use logic for a more interesting scenario... Or the film is badly written in comparison to TFA because we are seeing the *bulk* of First Order forces here, and these written-to-be-more-incompetent idiots in this film wasted half their resources because they couldn't pursue or cut off antique equipment and because no one in Star Wars history has ever tried a hyperspace ram.

Which is why it's a shame Johnson didn't follow Abrams and the Story Group's attempt to make the First Order a smaller, leaner, but sharper and more efficient antagonist in TFA. *That* would have been new and interesting.

Okay, I’m well on record for calling “bad plotting/planning” on the new series. But, I don’t think we can’t call the new series on The New Republic’s lack of a standing fleet.

First, it looks to me like the members of The Rebel Alliance who supplied ships took huge losses over the course of the OT, with the toll being especially high at Endor. That’s not even counting the chewin’ The Empire put on them in the climax of Rogue One.

Second, it’s not surprising that after an expensive war, the members of The New Republic didn’t want to spend the massive money on a new Fleet, nor (after years of living in fear of a large star-naval power) did they want to see anybody assemble another standing force. The US didn’t want much of a central organized force after its revolution for nearly 25 years (which also explains The Resistance being a ragtag affair).

Third, it’s quite believable that after decades of war, The New Republic members didn’t want to believe there was actually a big mean new threat on the horizon. The US didn’t want to believe it for a decade after the fall of The Soviets.

Fourth, (if I remember this right) Starkiller Base didn’t zap one planet, it hit four or five at once. That could account for a lot of The New Republic’s military assets. Moreover, the chaos resulting from multiple key planets getting popped all at once (I’m assuming The First Order didn’t waste any of those Killer Beams on Punk Planets) likely threw everybody else into confusion and panic. (point four is off topic, but I was on a roll)

My main point is, the idea that The New Republic had minimal assets that got zapped is not completely indefensible if you grant Starkiller Base’s existence (I hate the whole Starkiller Base plot device, but it is now canon).

One thing godisawesome’s argument does suggest is that other systems should still have some assets left, most likely on the run after such a huge display of force. If there’s any coherent plotting to this new series at all (and so far there hasn’t been) such remnants should be the blocks from which The Resistance is rebuilt.

[KOSLOX]

Okay, I’m well on record for calling “bad plotting/planning” on the new series. But, I don’t think we can’t call the new series on The New Republic’s lack of a standing fleet.

First, it looks to me like the members of The Rebel Alliance who supplied ships took huge losses over the course of the OT, with the toll being especially high at Endor. That’s not even counting the chewin’ The Empire put on them in the climax of Rogue One.

Second, it’s not surprising that after an expensive war, the members of The New Republic didn’t want to spend the massive money on a new Fleet, nor (after years of living in fear of a large star-naval power) did they want to see anybody assemble another standing force. The US didn’t want much of a central organized force after its revolution for nearly 25 years (which also explains The Resistance being a ragtag affair).

Third, it’s quite believable that after decades of war, The New Republic members didn’t want to believe there was actually a big mean new threat on the horizon. The US didn’t want to believe it for a decade after the fall of The Soviets.

Fourth, (if I remember this right) Starkiller Base didn’t zap one planet, it hit four or five at once. That could account for a lot of The New Republic’s military assets. Moreover, the chaos resulting from multiple key planets getting popped all at once (I’m assuming The First Order didn’t waste any of those Killer Beams on Punk Planets) likely threw everybody else into confusion and panic. (point four is off topic, but I was on a roll)

My main point is, the idea that The New Republic had minimal assets that got zapped is not completely indefensible if you grant Starkiller Base’s existence (I hate the whole Starkiller Base plot device, but it is now canon).

One thing godisawesome’s argument does suggest is that other systems should still have some assets left, most likely on the run after such a huge display of force. If there’s any coherent plotting to this new series at all (and so far there hasn’t been) such remnants should be the blocks from which The Resistance is rebuilt.

Didn't TLJ sort of address the other systems? Leia's codes were menat to rally the allies Godisawesome alludes to but they didn't show up. They may in the the next film, but as of right now the Resistance is basically down to a single ragtag group that has been abandoned.

What would be really cool is seeing the next movie depict massive popular uprisings throughout the galaxy, but that may end up resulting in total anarchy with loose confederations of planets rather than a republic. The galaxy may just end up completely fragmented.

That said, I wouldn't hate that. There could be some interesting stories there.

[ZeroBG82]

Didn't TLJ sort of address the other systems? Leia's codes were menat to rally the allies Godisawesome alludes to but they didn't show up. They may in the the next film, but as of right now the Resistance is basically down to a single ragtag group that has been abandoned.

This. It wasn't spelled out quite as clearly in the film as it probably needed to be, but it's there. The Resistance has allies in the Outer Rim. Other people who they believe are willing to stand up and fight with them. But when the moment comes where they call for help, nobody shows. Nobody believes it's a winnable fight, and they abandon the cause. It's the roundtable discussion from Rogue One, where most of the Alliance wants to give up and give in because of the Death Star, or just want to avoid a fight they probably can't win. The Resistance is going to die alone.

That's the ultimate significance of Luke showing up, relative to the Resistance plot (as opposed to relative to Rey and Kylo's, or his own story, where it obviously serves as an endpoint to his journey in the film). The one ally who does appear in their time of need is both the one who swore off the fight and disappeared, and the one who can actually turn the tide. Not by defeating the First Order. But by reigniting the hope of those who would stand up to tyranny. Luke's exile effectively marks the rise of the First Order, but his return... well, to quote the film, his return is the spark. The spark that will light the fire, etc, etc. Even in "disgrace" and failure, Luke remains a beacon of hope for a galaxy at war.

[Sighphi]

Fourth, (if I remember this right) Starkiller Base didn’t zap one planet, it hit four or five at once. That could account for a lot of The New Republic’s military assets. Moreover, the chaos resulting from multiple key planets getting popped all at once (I’m assuming The First Order didn’t waste any of those Killer Beams on Punk Planets) likely threw everybody else into confusion and panic. (point four is off topic, but I was on a roll)

My main point is, the idea that The New Republic had minimal assets that got zapped is not completely indefensible if you grant Starkiller Base’s existence (I hate the whole Starkiller Base plot device, but it is now canon).

it was the Hosian system. Why was everything in one solar system?

[Buried Alien]

it was the Hosian system. Why was everything in one solar system?

Perhaps for similar reasons that the major centers for U.S. government (Washington DC) and commerce/culture (New York, Boston) are all located within a 500-mile radius of each other.

Additionally, as planetary bodies move constantly, it can be assumed that the planets of the Hosian System weren't necessarily always aligned in a way where it would be easy for the Starkiller to pick them off. They were literally at the wrong place at the wrong time when the Starkiller attacked...something that the First Order had probably been planning for a while.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Darkseid Is]

Really? I thought this was a return to form for Yoda. I mean, they used the puppet rather than CGI, for starters. But aside feom that, he had like 3 or 4 really steong lines, on par with “do or do not, there is no try”.

But then again, I guess I consider Star Wars along the lines of Saturday morning cartoons, so perhaps that helps.

I just mean I prefer the force storyline to be a little more serious. I never looked at Star Wars as commercials until after Empire as far as the cartoons go haha

[ClanAskani]

So, last three days in a row the movie's seen an actual increase in revenue compared to last week, and not an insignificant one either(+27.4%, +36.9%, +29.3% respectively), so it seems any significant dropoff talk was very premature

All of the major releases have seen increases, which was expected since most schools weren't out. The problem is the gap is closing between TLJ and Jumanji. Jumanji is gaining momentum and TLJ is falling off. So you can't blame weather or people not going to the movies. Theaters are required by Disney to have Star Wars in their largest theater for 2 weeks so many places Jumanji is in a small theaters and selling out while there are tons of empty seats for TLJ.

The metric to measure the WOM and "legs" is the multiplier - the total domestic box office divided by the opening weekend. TFA had a 3.8, Rogue One had a 3.45. With a 220M opening, TLJ would be expected to get to 792M domestically with a 3.6 multiplier. Right now it's on pace for about 660M, which is a 3 multiplier. That's okay but Disney execs will be disappointed. If the domestic box office falls below the 3 multiplier, then there's major issues for Disney.

Jumanji opened very low, so it's on track for a 6+ multiplier. The worst impact of Jumanji is it shows other studios that they don't need to just counter-program against Star Wars or Avatar. They can just go with a fun Rock/Chris Hart type action comedy with broader appeal. So Episode IX will face more competition.

[Sighphi]

Perhaps for similar reasons that the major centers for U.S. government (Washington DC) and commerce/culture (New York, Boston) are all located within a 500-mile radius of each other.

Additionally, as planetary bodies move constantly, it can be assumed that the planets of the Hosian System weren't necessarily always aligned in a way where it would be easy for the Starkiller to pick them off. They were literally at the wrong place at the wrong time when the Starkiller attacked...something that the First Order had probably been planning for a while.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

the post im replying to is talking about the military not the government.

[hawkeyefan]

Well I will say that I'm glad I asked the question because it's definitely something worth discussing. Let me see if I can think some of this through. But respectfully, please don't declare that I'm wrong. Just say you disagree with my opinion. Chances are, neither one of is is correct.

First I guess is the issue of Luke. Honestly, you could argue that Luke's character being screwed up is not something isolated in this movie. It really comes because of how Force Awakens set up this new universe. Logically, if you were to continue the story from Return, you'd see Leia and the new republic in a seat of power and Luke as the wise old teacher training new Jedi. If that's how Force Awakens opened then it would make perfect sense. But instead, it just opened with the same old setting as New Hope. Yeah, 30 years is kind of a long time maybe. And maybe, after the last note of Yub nub was played, the new order picked up their hammers and said "welp, let's make another death star." Where they get all that manpower, advanced tech (and as we saw in Rogue One it was super unique advanced tech), organization, and drive to build something even bigger than the entire Empire could during the height of its reign of power is a mystery? Maybe the outer rim, who knows.

The problem is, during those missing 30 years there was a lot of important plot points that happened which we don't get to see except in tiny bits of flashback. So going from Jedi to Awakens is a bit jarring. And the problem is compounded more because characters like Luke become suddenly unrecognizable in this transition. Inconsistencies and big gaping plot holes... that's Bad Storytelling 101.

But if you turn it around, how much help did he really give Rey?

"30 years is kind of a long time maybe"? It's half of the lives of Luke and Leia. A lot can happen, and obviously a lot did. I think the characters had a couple of decades of relative peace and then things started to get a bit dangerous again. We don't see it all, especially the happy years because that would make for pretty boring stuff, but it's hinted at. We're shown what we need to be shown, for the most part. I think they could have done a bit more to explain the dynamics between the New Republic, the Resistance, and the First Order....but I don't feel like I couldn't follow things.

I don't think that having things change over 30 years, and then not giving the audience all the info right up front is bad storytelling. I think you show what you need to in order to tell the story you want. You don't give them a list of bullet points: "This happened, then that, followed by the other thing...". That would be bad storytelling. Knowing what to keep from the viewer and what to share is a big part of telling stories.

How much help did Luke give to Rey? In the ways we may have expected, not a lot. He didn't teach her as she asked. Or at least, not much.

But the example of heroism he gave at the end? That will likely serve as inspiration to Rey and a whole new generation of potential Jedi, not to mention the remaining members of the Resistance. So in that sense, I think he taught her quite a bit.

For Kylo, he was given the option to do things the Rey way. He chose otherwise. Now he's a scumbag. I don't know where the disconnect is there. She showed him the correct thing to do. He didn't do it. So now he's still flawed. It's not about choosing his own destiny. Flawed people make their own choices too. Poe chose to sacrifice lives in the beginning recklessly. Man not listen to woman. Man do bad. A recurring theme.

I think these two situations don't really relate, and that you're sensing a theme that is not intended. These two stories are so different.

Rey tries to redeem Kylo Ren. He is not redeemed. He chooses to ignore her and does what he wants to do. To us, this may be "wrong" in the moral sense, but to him, this is what is right. Kylo Ren ignores advice and does things his way because that's what he chooses to do.

Poe does things his way, and it's reckless and needlessly risky. He's willing to listen to Leia, but not to Holdo. So when Leia is sidelined, Poe questions his commanding officer. He is in the wrong. He eventually learns this. Not because he listened to a woman, but because he saw what happened and he learned. Would he have been "right" all along if he had listened to Holdo? Yes. Do I think this is a comment on women and men in general? No. Maybe it's more about trusting the chain of command.

What was General Holdo's character flaw? Or Rose? Or Leia? Or Rey? I'm not talking obstacles. I'm talking bad character traits. Were any of them reckless? or cowardly? or selfish?

Well Holdo chooses not to share info with Poe. You seem to think that was a flaw. I think it makes sense on her part, although perhaps she could have made an exception given the circumstances. I'd also say that she's a bit indecisive in the end. Once she realizes that the First Order is firing on the escaping transport ships, she watches as several more are destroyed before finally deciding to kamikaze the ship into the First Order fleet. Maybe the idea did not occur to her? But the way it was presented it seemed like maybe she could have saved 2 or 3 of the ships if she had acted quicker.

Leia gives Poe too much leeway because he reminds her of someone, and that contributes to his recklessness, and his willingness to not follow orders. This leads to him clashing with Holdo. Perhaps if Leia had reined him in a bit more, there wouldn't have been such an issue when he was then reporting to Holdo.

Rey fails to convince Luke to join her, and leaves without him. She fails to redeem Kylo Ren. She constantly seeks someone else to tell her who she is until she finally learns that it's up to her. So yeah, that's a pretty fundamental flaw that plays a big part in the movie. She literally asks for someone to tell her her place in all this.

Rose isn't as well developed as the others, so it's harder to say. But I'd say her big mistake is trusting DJ because he appealed to her emotions. He totally plays her, and she has no idea.

Side bar: Why would Holdo not tell Finn and everyone on that ship the plan? Why not announce to the crew that they're going to try and make it to this secret base instead of having everyone think that once the fuel runs out we all dead. There's no reason to keep that information hidden unless the storyteller wants to show us how dumb Poe was to question the command of a woman?

While I would not have objected if she had done so, typically there is chain of command in the military, and objectives may or may not be revealed to members down the chain. Usually, everyone only knows what they need to know. So the crew knew they needed to keep flying, and they had their flight path. What more do they need to know? Why risk the First Order somehow finding out what they were up to? The more people that know something, the better chance it won't be kept a secret.

What more did Poe need to know? He didn't even have a role to play....he literally should have sat it out unless they needed fighter pilots. Because he's a main character, we kind of feel like he needs to know....but he doesn't.

Soldiers don't demand answers from generals.

Finn's whole side mission had no effect on the main plot. It was almost like a different movie was going on. They could've died on gambler's world and nothing would have changed. What happened? Finn learned there was something worth fighting for? Cause he was dragged kicking and screaming into Starkiller base in the last episode? Inconsistent.

He went into Starkiller Base to save Rey. He otherwise had decided not to care about the struggle any more because he's convinced that the First Order is so bad that there is no fighting them. So at the start of the movie, when he wakes up, he's about to sneak off, but Rose stops him. She makes him realize that he's become something more than just a guy. To me, this kind of ties into Luke's story of living up to the legend, although on a smaller scale.

Then they go on their journey, and Finn sees another side of the whole struggle....the people that are profiting from it. I think it's there to show him that even if you aren't a part of the Resistance or part of the First Order, you still have to pick a side. The struggle is too big to avoid. And I think Rose's desire to free the animals drives home that you have to take an active role in trying to effect change.

Then, finally, their mission brings them face to face with Phasma. This lets Finn face her down once and for all. He even accepts his role as "rebel scum". At this point, he's pretty much ready to choose his side for reasons beyond his own survival, and then we see him ready to sacrifice himself later during the final battle. Rose prevents him from doing that, but he was ready to do so.

All in all, this wasn't my favorite part of the movie. But I wouldn't say it served no purpose. It was mostly about Finn's journey, but it did impact the main storyline, as well.

[hawkeyefan]

Rey's parents. Yeah it's probably the only part of this movie that makes sense, that they're scum. But why is this thing constantly used by Snoke and Kylo as the carrot on the end of the stick... if she knew the truth the whole time? Why was she searching for answers in the evil pit if she already knew? Why did she initially turn down Han's offer and intend to go back to Jakku to wait for them if she already knew they were dead and buried? Inconsistent.

Because she didn't actually know the whole time. It's the kind of thing that someone knows all along, but they hope so much for something else, that they don't admit it to themselves. So she knew deep down inside, but couldn't admit it to herself. So Snoke and Kylo Ren know she's struggling with her identity...and of course they use that.

I don't think this is inconsistent. She can't admit it to herself that her parents were jerks that dropped her off on Jakku for no good reason. She wants to think that there was some grand reason for it, and that they'll be back. She hopes for that so much, that she declines Han's offer. It's only after she goes into the cave, and sees only her own reflection when she's looking for her parents that she's ready to understand the truth. And then it all boils to a head during her confrontation with Kylo Ren.

I think this is one of my favorite parts of the movie. The audience wants to think there is some huge backstory for Rey, as well. That she's a princess in hiding, or another Skywalker or Kenobi....anything. I mean, that's what happens in these kinds of stories, right? But that doesn't add up. Who would ever have left her on Jakku as if it was a safe environment? No one who actually cared for her would do that. I mean, when Luke and Leia were hidden, one went with family in a remote area, and the other was given to royalty on another planet.

Rey was given to a taskmaster that made her work for food. Hardly the environment parents or Jedi would choose for a child.

Let's also keep in mind, not everyone has read every star wars novel ever made. And (as scary as it seems) not everyone can quote the original trilogy word for word. A lot of the fans today in the 13 - 25 year old range maybe seen the originals once or twice, maybe saw one of the prequels in a theater. The fans who are driving ticket sales see the original trilogy the same way old star wars fans would look at old sci fi from the 50s. They know of it, but they don't really know much else. So when you say the old venerable jedi master thing has been done to death... yeah it has, but to some it's still new. What I am seeing here with Luke is a case of change for the sake of change.

But from the point of the storyteller....why not try to do something a bit new? If Luke is the earnest hero who wants to help the resistance, then his story is the same as Rey's. And that doesn't really work, because ultimately, this is now her story. So Luke's role has to be something else. So what can it be? How about if he's removed himself from the struggle because he thinks that's for the best.

I guess lastly, let me just be clear. I have no problem with females in leadership roles, or an abundance of female characters. My issue comes from the contrast in how females and males are portrayed. In a movie like this with almost zero romantic story... excuse me... zero relevant romantic story... I would expect to see more of a blurred line between roles.

I think you're making connections that aren't intended, and then drawing that conclusion. I think this is more a byproduct of the writers/creators not worrying so much about the traditional gender roles, and in their general shift toward allowing female characters to be heroic in their own right. So I do think there is some effort being made to improve the role of female characters.

I don't think there is any attempt to push down male characters, though.

[AngryComicBookNerd]

I don't want to keep going around in circles so just some quick hits...

The 30 year gap is what it is. If I read all the novels and comics or whatever then supposedly I'd understand. So that's on me.

I don't care that Rey's parents are dead scumbags. It's just the whole she knew/she didn't know angle almost has the feel of a retcon. Didn't they mention that she saw their graves too? I don't know. The memory thing just didn't do it for me. But that's just me.

Regarding Finn... who cares? Why am I supposed to care about his journey? Whether he's a coward or a hero, what is his contribution? Is it so major that it requires us to go on this pointless journey of redemption with him if his overall role in the story is insignificant? And how anti-climactic was the Phasma showdown anyway?

Everything else you said I'll just say all fair points. I've got other stuff to crab about on other forums. But I had to point out the one glaring issue here:

Well Holdo chooses not to share info with Poe. You seem to think that was a flaw. I think it makes sense on her part, although perhaps she could have made an exception given the circumstances. I'd also say that she's a bit indecisive in the end. Once she realizes that the First Order is firing on the escaping transport ships, she watches as several more are destroyed before finally deciding to kamikaze the ship into the First Order fleet. Maybe the idea did not occur to her? But the way it was presented it seemed like maybe she could have saved 2 or 3 of the ships if she had acted quicker.

Leia gives Poe too much leeway because he reminds her of someone, and that contributes to his recklessness, and his willingness to not follow orders. This leads to him clashing with Holdo. Perhaps if Leia had reined him in a bit more, there wouldn't have been such an issue when he was then reporting to Holdo.

Rey fails to convince Luke to join her, and leaves without him. She fails to redeem Kylo Ren. She constantly seeks someone else to tell her who she is until she finally learns that it's up to her. So yeah, that's a pretty fundamental flaw that plays a big part in the movie. She literally asks for someone to tell her her place in all this.

Rose isn't as well developed as the others, so it's harder to say. But I'd say her big mistake is trusting DJ because he appealed to her emotions. He totally plays her, and she has no idea.

Did you notice that in describing every female character's flaws, you managed to include aspects of the men behaving badly that kinda contributes to these flaws? So if men didn't exist in this world, there wouldn't be any problems?

Last thought, diversity in the First Order... why? Are we that nuts that we have to show diversity every-freakin-where? Now hang on... I know what you're going to say. Hear me out. These are the bad guys. They should look like white male WWII german Nazis because that's what everyone hates. How am I supposed to hate a First Order that's an equal opportunity employer? What kind of a degenerate would that make me?