Star Wars The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

[BeastieRunner]

Vader has the body count and time on his side but Kylo did the one thing Vader could not: kill his family and take over as the leader.

[abulafia]

Between New Hope and ESB Luke did not receive any training and was able to bring the light saber lodged in the ice cave by using the Force. He was never trained in using light sabers. Holding a light saber is one thing. But battling Darth Vader is another. He was able to trouble Darth Vader a fully trained Jedi turned evil. (Its like i would take a sword and fight Vader. Someone who has not hold a sword before). We did not see Luke training in Force choke or making people follow his orders as shown in the beginning of ROTJ. He had not returned to Dagobah to complete the training at that point. When he does return to Dagobah, Yoda says that he does not need more training as he has learnt all that was needed. So, the training shown in Empire Strikes Back was enough. Some were onscreen some offscreen.

the huge difference between ANH/EMP and TFA/TLJ is that there is HUGE time gap between the former while the latter picks up imediatly ater we left.
we knew obi wan was guiding luke from beyond. luke bothers to carry that acient lazersword around, so maybe he does some katas in his offtime?
the ground is laid, the rest is filled with imagination. that is why it does work so well

then he goes after vader and gets his butt handed to him. he is lucky to be alive, which is mostly, as we just learned, that vader sparred him for personal reasons.

rey in TLJ would be like luke leaving with vader, kill the emporer and his imperial guard, then fly back to yavin to save the rebels

[Sighphi]

The guy is not completely accurate for sure. But he makes some nice points.

It is pretty much shown that Rey had fought her whole life to survive. She is really tough. Remember the scene at Jakku when she saved BB8. There were three people trying to take BB8 and she beat all three of them effortlessly. Her background is sufficient to explain any skills she might have without the Force.

The issue isnt her taking down generic people, the issue is her taking down a force user.

About the Force i would say that she is really powerful with the Force. That was confirmed by TLJ. But if we take TFA by itself i don't see lot of problems either. In the OT, Luke did not get much training and was still a full fledged Jedi by the end of the Trilogy.

what? You are comparing 3 movie to 1 and dont see an issue?

Training was never a big part of Star Wars.

ANH-Obi told luke he needs to train and become a Jedi.
ESB-Obi told luke to go to dagobah to train.
RoTJ-Darth mentions his jedi training is complete when he crafted his own saber.

PM- QGJ is training Obi and pick up Anakin to train him.
AOTC- Obi is training Anakin.
RotS- Anakin is lured to the dark side by Palpatine suggesting training in new techniques.

.....what?

In New Hope Luke was trained for like 15 minutes by Obi Wan using that droid on Millenium Falcon. That much was sufficient for Luke to hit a target which even targeting computers were unable to hit.

so he got training.

Between New Hope and ESB Luke did not receive any training and was able to bring the light saber lodged in the ice cave by using the Force. He was never trained in using light sabers. Holding a light saber is one thing. But battling Darth Vader is another. He was able to trouble Darth Vader a fully trained Jedi turned evil. (Its like i would take a sword and fight Vader. Someone who has not hold a sword before).

You just said he got 15 minutes of training on the Falcon. Do you really not remember what the scene showed?

We did not see Luke training in Force choke or making people follow his orders as shown in the beginning of ROTJ. He had not returned to Dagobah to complete the training at that point. When he does return to Dagobah, Yoda says that he does not need more training as he has learnt all that was needed. So, the training shown in Empire Strikes Back was enough. Some were onscreen some offscreen.

By the third movie, i repeat, by the third movie. Which, unlike the current movies, does not take place in a timespand of days. Like you say, he got some offscreen time to learn something, Rey doesnt. Specially when she has no master to teach her anything.

The incredible things are taken care of by the Force. It partially controls the actions of the Jedi and obeys his will as mentioned in the New Hope by Obi Wan. The new Star Wars films are definitely in line with the Original Trilogy.

And we learn this while Luke is being trained to learned this.
Rey never has this, she just does it out of nowhere.

[Carabas]

I am speaking as a fan here. I would prefer no redemption. Killing Solo is really heinous. He was my favorite character in OT. Vader could not kill his son. In this respect Kylo is more heinous. He killed his father.

But, crucially, he did not kill a bunch of little kids, or his pregnant wife.

Vader was not completely evil.

But, to me anyway, a lot more evil than Kylo Ren has shown to be.
And there's still good in Kylo Ren as well. This was shown in the scene where he couldn't pull the trigger on Leia.

[KOSLOX]

But, crucially, he did not kill a bunch of little kids, or his pregnant wife.
But, to me anyway, a lot more evil than Kylo Ren has shown to be.
And there's still good in Kylo Ren as well. This was shown in the scene where he couldn't pull the trigger on Leia.

Yeah... Vader may not have been able to kill his own son, but he sure as #### had no problem killing the sons and daughters that made up the Jedi Kindergarten Class of 18 BANH.

Honestly tossing details like that into the prequel trilogy stomped all over Vader's redemption arc for me. Lucas should have just had him betray the adult Jedi, but that moment was about a million bridges too far.

[Carabas]

Honestly tossing details like that into the prequel trilogy stomped all over Vader's redemption arc for me. Lucas should have just had him betray the adult Jedi, but that moment was about a million bridges too far.

It wasn't even the first time. He wiped out that Sandpeople tribe, even the women and children. Anakin didn't fall. Palpatine didn't turn him. He was always evil.

[David Walton]

Vader has the body count and time on his side but Kylo did the one thing Vader could not: kill his family and take over as the leader.

It's a great variation on Vader's villainy.

Vader was cold, calculating, and driven.

Kylo is angry, impulsive, aimless.

Vader is essentially undone as a villain the moment Luke brings his long-buried internal conflict rushing back to the surface.

Kylo, by contrast, is driven by his internal conflict. It's what makes him dangerous. One of the best character moments of the film is when he tells Rey he didn't kill Han because he hated him. Kylo is lashing out at the world and he doesn't even know why.

And that is what makes him terrifying.

[WebLurker]

the huge difference between ANH/EMP and TFA/TLJ is that there is HUGE time gap between the former while the latter picks up imediatly ater we left.
we knew obi wan was guiding luke from beyond. luke bothers to carry that acient lazersword around, so maybe he does some katas in his offtime?
the ground is laid, the rest is filled with imagination. that is why it does work so well

then he goes after vader and gets his butt handed to him. he is lucky to be alive, which is mostly, as we just learned, that vader sparred him for personal reasons.

Luke's inbwtween training is covered in the main Star Wars comic series, and the books The Weapon of a Jedi and Heir to the Jedi.

rey in TLJ would be like luke leaving with vader, kill the emporer and his imperial guard, then fly back to yavin to save the rebels

Difference though, Rey didn't fight any Force users like Luke had to. The guards weren't Force users, so she had the skills needed to survive them. She was absolutely powerless against Snoke, who was killed by Kylo Ren. We know from TFA that she's not up for fighting a healthy Kylo. The reason she got away was because he tried to recruit her to his cause and got knocked out when their tug of war with the saber split the thing in half. Had Kylo not killed Snoke or chosen to fight her right away when she tried to take her saber back, it would've been a very different outcome.

[Soubhagya]

the huge difference between ANH/EMP and TFA/TLJ is that there is HUGE time gap between the former while the latter picks up imediatly ater we left.
we knew obi wan was guiding luke from beyond. luke bothers to carry that acient lazersword around, so maybe he does some katas in his offtime?
the ground is laid, the rest is filled with imagination. that is why it does work so well

then he goes after vader and gets his butt handed to him. he is lucky to be alive, which is mostly, as we just learned, that vader sparred him for personal reasons.

rey in TLJ would be like luke leaving with vader, kill the emporer and his imperial guard, then fly back to yavin to save the rebels

I concede the point that the OT did a better job in explaining stuff. Or else we would not be having this conversation at all. Off time training is to be filled with imagination. We can surely imagine Obi Wan showing up between New Hope and ESB and teaching him some more. But there is nothing to show that anything like that happened. There is nothing to show that he learned the force pull as shown in the ice cave in ESB. You could be correct. But there's no training shown in that manner. For all our speculations it just might be that the second time Luke heard from ghost Obi Wan after New Hope was on Hoth when he was close to death.

He does put up a fight with Vader. But there is nothing to show that he is skilled enough to put up a fight. Its the Force which flows through him by which he could fight Darth Vader in ESB. Or else there is no explanation of Luke putting up a fight against a fully trained Sith Lord. Either that or Vader can't easily brush aside a farmboy who had never fought with a light saber before.

The two films since TFA has shown a couple of things about Rey. She is excellent in melee combat. She's really good with the staff having fought all her life. And she is really strong with the Force which has only increased after Luke's training.

Rey did not kill Snoke. Kylo killed him using deceitful methods. To kill the guards she had help from Kylo. And she is an excellent fighter courtesy her background. Throw in a powerful Force user its a deadly combination. Why do you say Luke leaving with Vader? Kylo did not turn back from the Dark Side. To help the Rebels she had the help of Chewbacca who was flying the Falcon, while she shot down FO fighters.

Luke's inbwtween training is covered in the main Star Wars comic series, and the books The Weapon of a Jedi and Heir to the Jedi.



Difference though, Rey didn't fight any Force users like Luke had to. The guards weren't Force users, so she had the skills needed to survive them. She was absolutely powerless against Snoke, who was killed by Kylo Ren. We know from TFA that she's not up for fighting a healthy Kylo. The reason she got away was because he tried to recruit her to his cause and got knocked out when their tug of war with the saber split the thing in half. Had Kylo not killed Snoke or chosen to fight her right away when she tried to take her saber back, it would've been a very different outcome.

Lol. It looks like both of us were posting at the same time.

[Soubhagya]

The issue isnt her taking down generic people, the issue is her taking down a force user.

Kylo was injured at the time of the fight and was not fighting to kill but to capture. Rey knows how to handle close quarters combat. She had been doing that all her life. And it was the Force flowing through her which managed to turn the tide of the battle.

what? You are comparing 3 movie to 1 and dont see an issue?

ANH-Obi told luke he needs to train and become a Jedi.
ESB-Obi told luke to go to dagobah to train.
RoTJ-Darth mentions his jedi training is complete when he crafted his own saber.

PM- QGJ is training Obi and pick up Anakin to train him.
AOTC- Obi is training Anakin.
RotS- Anakin is lured to the dark side by Palpatine suggesting training in new techniques.

.....what?

You misunderstand me. Every Jedi needs training. But some stuff are more basic. Its just like if i am naturally strong i can lift a heavier weight then a weaker guy but if i have to do real weightlifting i would have to train for that. If i am naturally strong i can still do better then a weaker guy. Rey is just really strong with the Force. Some things are easier for her due to her 'natural' talent which is more then usual Force users. But for advanced stuff like for instance what Luke pulled of in the end of TLJ, or the lighting by Yoda she needs training. Things like mind control or force pull is easy for her. And she was trained by Luke in Ahch-To before she could lift the rocks at the end of TLJ.

so he got training.

Luke managed to shoot a target which even targeting computers could not do. What was his training? 15 minutes on Millenium Falcon is too less to be considered as anything advanced. But the feat itself was. The 15 minute training was what Obi Wan said. "A first step into a larger world." That first step was taken by Rey at Maz Kanata's place when Luke's light saber called out to her and she had those visions. It actually ends with that same quote.

You just said he got 15 minutes of training on the Falcon. Do you really not remember what the scene showed?

And was that light saber training enough to take on a fully trained Sith Lord? I was speaking about the light saber training in this instance. Luke did not have any. Yet he managed to trouble Darth Vader. It was the Force working through him that enabled him to actually put up a fight.

By the third movie, i repeat, by the third movie. Which, unlike the current movies, does not take place in a timespand of days. Like you say, he got some offscreen time to learn something, Rey doesnt. Specially when she has no master to teach her anything.

And we learn this while Luke is being trained to learned this.
Rey never has this, she just does it out of nowhere.

I was speaking about Force feats which Luke performs in the beginning of ROTJ. He did a Force choke, managed to make others follow his orders. From where did he learn doing it? He had promised that he will return to Dagobah to complete his training in ESB. But he returned there after rescuing Han in ROTJ. I can hardly imagine him learning the Force choke or mind control by Yoda at Dagobah.

It's a great variation on Vader's villainy.

Vader was cold, calculating, and driven.

Kylo is angry, impulsive, aimless.

Vader is essentially undone as a villain the moment Luke brings his long-buried internal conflict rushing back to the surface.

Kylo, by contrast, is driven by his internal conflict. It's what makes him dangerous. One of the best character moments of the film is when he tells Rey he didn't kill Han because he hated him. Kylo is lashing out at the world and he doesn't even know why.

And that is what makes him terrifying.

Nice points. Kylo is an excellent villain.

[Buried Alien]

It wasn't even the first time. He wiped out that Sandpeople tribe, even the women and children. Anakin didn't fall. Palpatine didn't turn him. He was always evil.

Even in THE PHANTOM MENACE?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Carabas]

Even in THE PHANTOM MENACE?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

All movie kids are evil.

[Sighphi]

Kylo was injured at the time of the fight and was not fighting to kill but to capture. Rey knows how to handle close quarters combat. She had been doing that all her life. And it was the Force flowing through her which managed to turn the tide of the battle.

First time fighting some one using a saber and using a saber herself. No amount of stick fighting random bums is going to prepare you for this.

You misunderstand me. Every Jedi needs training. But some stuff are more basic. Its just like if i am naturally strong i can lift a heavier weight then a weaker guy but if i have to do real weightlifting i would have to train for that. If i am naturally strong i can still do better then a weaker guy. Rey is just really strong with the Force. Some things are easier for her due to her 'natural' talent which is more then usual Force users. But for advanced stuff like for instance what Luke pulled of in the end of TLJ, or the lighting by Yoda she needs training. Things like mind control or force pull is easy for her. And she was trained by Luke in Ahch-To before she could lift the rocks at the end of TLJ.

she pulled out 4 force abilities with no training.
pulling out 1 is fine, four is too much.

Luke managed to shoot a target which even targeting computers could not do. What was his training? 15 minutes on Millenium Falcon is too less to be considered as anything advanced. But the feat itself was. The 15 minute training was what Obi Wan said. "A first step into a larger world." That first step was taken by Rey at Maz Kanata's place when Luke's light saber called out to her and she had those visions. It actually ends with that same quote.

He said he was doing this back in beggar's canyon. And lets not forget that Obi had to call on him several times.

He didnt randomly use the force by himself.

And was that light saber training enough to take on a fully trained Sith Lord? I was speaking about the light saber training in this instance. Luke did not have any. Yet he managed to trouble Darth Vader. It was the Force working through him that enabled him to actually put up a fight.

trained under Obi and Yoda.

I was speaking about Force feats which Luke performs in the beginning of ROTJ. He did a Force choke, managed to make others follow his orders. From where did he learn doing it? He had promised that he will return to Dagobah to complete his training in ESB. But he returned there after rescuing Han in ROTJ. I can hardly imagine him learning the Force choke or mind control by Yoda at Dagobah.

offscreen like you said, which Rey has had no time to do.

[Sacred Knight]

Obi-Wan calling on Luke through the Force IS Luke using the Force randomly and unconsciously. Regular joe blow cannot be communicated with by a dead person. He's tapping into it the whole time. Its with him always, it always has, hence the famous quote. The only difference is that what Obi-Wan is urging him to do in that moment in the trench is to focus it consciously.

The fact of the matter is that the originals go out of their way more than once to showcase how naturally talented Luke is. I'm not disputing he's at least shown receiving more training than Rey ever has to this point, just that its a misrepresentation of the original films to paint a picture that Luke did not have prodigious qualities in his own right. I mean come on, training for a very brief period blocking some bolts on the Falcon, if we're being really scrupulous, isn't going to prepare someone for a dual with Darth Vader. And that's all the lightsaber training we ever see. Yoda doesn't train him at all in swordsmanship. In that vein I'd argue what he was shown doing isn't that greater a regimen over what little solo reps we see Rey perform with the saber on Ach-To. Neither character receives anything close to meaningful lightsaber training on screen. More time is allowed in OT, which allows the imagination greater freedom to do more (like books and comics did after the fact but its still after the fact), but even that isn't a great amount of time and the movies were still constructed showing little to nothing in terms of meaningful training.

[MagnusRex]

Luke's inbwtween training is covered in the main Star Wars comic series, and the books The Weapon of a Jedi and Heir to the Jedi.



Difference though, Rey didn't fight any Force users like Luke had to. The guards weren't Force users, so she had the skills needed to survive them. She was absolutely powerless against Snoke, who was killed by Kylo Ren. We know from TFA that she's not up for fighting a healthy Kylo. The reason she got away was because he tried to recruit her to his cause and got knocked out when their tug of war with the saber split the thing in half. Had Kylo not killed Snoke or chosen to fight her right away when she tried to take her saber back, it would've been a very different outcome.

But it's not like it is impossible to kill a force user. Force users, Jedi, are not indestructible. Jango Fett is a documented Jedi killer. General Grievous killed a number of Jedi and was not a force user.