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  1. #76
    the cloud surfer He-Kal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    If you thought this was a cynical movie, you didn't watch it closely enough. This movie was a shining beacon of idealism. It's entire, interwoven series of plots is about overcoming cynicism. About having hope that the galaxy can be made a better place. About sacrifice for a noble cause, and that a handful of people, standing up for what they believe in, can change the course of events.
    They didn't change the course of events though...They barely made it out alive with their tails tucked between their legs. And the whole thing with Luke REEKED of cynicism... I honestly was waiting for him to tell Rey at any minute that there's no good and evil,etc.... Really, this was a nihilistic Luke that had no hope for anything...I can completely see why Hamill was upset over the direction they took his character now (Luke's character was basically ruined)... This movie basically steals the soul out of what Star Wars is... Hopefully the next movie will redeem this mess since Abrams is directing, but Episode 9 is going to have to be AMAZING to fix the mess that Episode 8 has set up....
    Last edited by He-Kal; 12-16-2017 at 11:39 AM.

  2. #77
    Wrath of a God Xero Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    If you thought this was a cynical movie, you didn't watch it closely enough. This movie was a shining beacon of idealism. It's entire, interwoven series of plots is about overcoming cynicism. About having hope that the galaxy can be made a better place. About sacrifice for a noble cause, and that a handful of people, standing up for what they believe in, can change the course of events.
    Yeah, I have no idea how anyone could walk away with the idea that this movie was cynical. Dealing with cynicism and glorifying it aren't the same thing.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Kal View Post
    I think the reasons critics love this movie (and the general public does not) is because Last Jedi is a cynical movie and a lot of movie critics are cynical by nature... Cynical ideas and Star Wars are not a good mix...
    I disagree that audience hated it. RT audience score can be manipulated by people who downvote or upvote it without watching it and using multiple accounts. The only reliable audience score is Cinemascore imo. It is at A. The same score as Wonder Woman.

    I thought it was not cynical. The heroes went through their darkest hour. Its about emphasizing hope and light using darkness. In spite of being essentially reduced to a handful of people they would continue to fight on. They are the spark which will grow into the blazing fire which will defeat the First Order. That was pretty much among the last important lines. Jedi survived. They did not end despite best efforts of Snoke and Kylo. Rey being the Last Jedi. Poe was now the leader after Leia. The ending scene with the unnamed children with the symbol of the Resistance acting as the symbol of hope. I did not think it was cynical. Imo it was bleak but with a promise for a brighter future.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Kal View Post
    They didn't change the course of events though...They barely made it out alive with their tails tucked between their legs. And the whole thing with Luke REEKED of cynicism... I honestly was waiting for him to tell Rey at any minute that there's no good and evil,etc.... Really, this was a nihilistic Luke that had no hope for anything...I can completely see why Hamill was upset over the direction they took his character now (Luke's character was basically ruined by this movie)... This movie basically steals the soul out of what Star Wars is... Hopefully the next movie will redeem this mess since Abrams is directing, but Episode 9 is going to have to be AMAZING to fix the mess that Episode 8 has set up....
    No, the heroes failed. At just about every turn. "The greatest teacher, failure is." That's the point. Holding on to hope is the whole point. The movie isn't subtle here. Every time they fail they learn a little bit, grow a little bit.

    Everybody fails. Everybody sets goals they don't reach, has plans that don't work out. But it's about what you learn from your experiences, how you grow, how you overcome.

    Luke's plot doesn't reek of cynicism. It's a scathing indictment of cynicism! He had all but given up, exiled himself and hidden himself away. And he was in no way nihilistic. He couldn't even burn down the tree after vowing to do just that! Luke lost his way. He was afraid, and ashamed. He was a legend who bought his own hype, then failed at something in a major way, and he didn't know how to reconcile that. He was the guy who beat back the darkness, except he accidentally helped unleash a new one. He was human. But then along comes both a new student and an old teacher, who each show him that the path isn't to cut himself off and stay beaten. It's to get back up and do something. Luke has been a selfish old fool. It's ok, he's entitled to some failings after what he's been through.

    When Luke "arrives" on Crait, it's the opposite of cynicism. He's stepping up and doing something that literally only he can do. He's becoming the spark. He's moving past his mistakes, past his feelings of shame and regret, and giving the future hope.

    I get it, you wanted the legend. We all did, to some degree. To see LUKE SKYWALKER, JEDI MASTER. But this isn't a story of infallible gods, or of Herculean heroes. The Last Jedi is about failure. It's about what happens when, despite your best intentions and highest hopes, you fail and have to recover and move on. You either get stronger or you get broken. The movie definitely takes a side on which is the correct course of action: get stronger.

  5. #80
    the cloud surfer He-Kal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    No, the heroes failed. At just about every turn. "The greatest teacher, failure is." That's the point. Holding on to hope is the whole point. The movie isn't subtle here. Every time they fail they learn a little bit, grow a little bit.

    Everybody fails. Everybody sets goals they don't reach, has plans that don't work out. But it's about what you learn from your experiences, how you grow, how you overcome.

    Luke's plot doesn't reek of cynicism. It's a scathing indictment of cynicism! He had all but given up, exiled himself and hidden himself away. And he was in no way nihilistic. He couldn't even burn down the tree after vowing to do just that! Luke lost his way. He was afraid, and ashamed. He was a legend who bought his own hype, then failed at something in a major way, and he didn't know how to reconcile that. He was the guy who beat back the darkness, except he accidentally helped unleash a new one. He was human. But then along comes both a new student and an old teacher, who each show him that the path isn't to cut himself off and stay beaten. It's to get back up and do something. Luke has been a selfish old fool. It's ok, he's entitled to some failings after what he's been through.

    When Luke "arrives" on Crait, it's the opposite of cynicism. He's stepping up and doing something that literally only he can do. He's becoming the spark. He's moving past his mistakes, past his feelings of shame and regret, and giving the future hope.

    I get it, you wanted the legend. We all did, to some degree. To see LUKE SKYWALKER, JEDI MASTER. But this isn't a story of infallible gods, or of Herculean heroes. The Last Jedi is about failure. It's about what happens when, despite your best intentions and highest hopes, you fail and have to recover and move on. You either get stronger or you get broken. The movie definitely takes a side on which is the correct course of action: get stronger.
    How did Luke get stronger though? HE DIED...lol The scene with Yoda to me was only one of the redeemable things about this movie (I thought), but after digesting this for a couple of days I've realized this scene isn't even good. Yoda was completely out of character and when he set the tree on fire destroying the Jedi artifacts....I'm sorry, but this movie is a hot mess...

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Kal View Post
    How did Luke get stronger though? HE DIED...
    No. He levelled up.

    "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine".

  7. #82
    the cloud surfer He-Kal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    No. He levelled up.

    "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine".
    Yeah, Obi-Wan did that, too, but didn't have to go through a nihilistic approach to get to that point though.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Kal View Post
    Yeah, Obi-Wan did that, too, but didn't have to go through a nihilistic approach to get to that point though.
    If Luke were nihilistic in the slightest he would't even be able to do it.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Kal View Post
    How did Luke get stronger though? HE DIED...lol The scene with Yoda to me was only one of the redeemable things about this movie (I thought), but after digesting this for a couple of days I've realized this scene isn't even good. Yoda was completely out of character and when he set the tree on fire destroying the Jedi artifacts....I'm sorry, but this movie is a hot mess...
    Luke let go of the myth. He thought he had to be infallible to be useful. He couldn't get past his failure. But he found hope for the future. Luke got stronger by finally being able to get back in the fight and reconnect with the Force. Using literally all of his strength to reach across the galaxy and single-handedly save the Resistance from the First Order.

    Also, Yoda DIDN'T DESTROY ANY JEDI ARTIFACTS. The library was empty when he burned it. Rey stole the books. "There was nothing in that library that young Rey does not already possess." Yoda's exact words. And then we see the books on the Falcon at the end of the movie. Yoda already knew the books were safe, it was a big dramatic gesture to break through Luke's haze.

  10. #85
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Just came back from seeing it.

    I feel weird about this movie.

    The whole tempo and process is very dragging, we got this whole movie on chasing, and the climax is not focused enough, we got like climax after climax and each wasn't strong enough. Snoke dies-The ship blow up-Luke shows up, that's a bit too much and should instead focus on 1-2.

    I do like Luke's portrayal, while it's sad to see him die. I know many people surely dislike how he thought about killing Ren, but at least that's understandable. His death scene was perfect.


    First Order got really badly characterization. Every one of them feel so incompetent unlike the Empire in the old trilogy or the PT villains. Even though they destroyed the republic and almost wiped out the rebels. They suck so much.

    Ren' acting was terrible compare to Rey. I can't imagine him being the next movie's antagonist.



    Overall I will give like 3.5/5.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Kal View Post
    They didn't change the course of events though...They barely made it out alive with their tails tucked between their legs. And the whole thing with Luke REEKED of cynicism... I honestly was waiting for him to tell Rey at any minute that there's no good and evil,etc.... Really, this was a nihilistic Luke that had no hope for anything...I can completely see why Hamill was upset over the direction they took his character now (Luke's character was basically ruined)... This movie basically steals the soul out of what Star Wars is... Hopefully the next movie will redeem this mess since Abrams is directing, but Episode 9 is going to have to be AMAZING to fix the mess that Episode 8 has set up....
    Did you even watch the same movie?
    Luke is in this position because his apprentice got turned evil by an evil force he didn't know about, overpowered him, burned down his temple, killed his students and turned those who would join him, and joined a resurgent Empire. In every way Luke has failed to restore the Jedi and basically made the same mistakes the old Jedi order did. He felt people needed the legend, and not the actual Jedi so he went to Acht-to to die. He's done and the galaxy will sort itself out if the Jedi can't do it. Problem is that they need the legend, so his arc is him realizing he needs to save the galaxy again by living up to what people expect out of the Jedi.

    He trains Rey.
    He confronts his failure in Kylo Ren and moves on.
    He manifests across the galaxy and becomes the invincible, skilled, beacon of hope the Resistance needs in its darkest hour to protect the Republic he and so many others fought to protect.

    Yeah he starts bitter, who wouldn't be? But Luke makes a triumphant return and is literally more powerful than the First Order could ever imagine. He becomes the legend people need and its justified in Luke unlike a large majority of the older Jedi. That's the reason for the scene with the kids at the end. He becomes something to inspire a whole new generation of people and something for Rey and the following Jedi to live up to.
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  12. #87
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Did you even watch the same movie?
    Luke is in this position because his apprentice got turned evil by an evil force he didn't know about, overpowered him, burned down his temple, killed his students and turned those who would join him, and joined a resurgent Empire. In every way Luke has failed to restore the Jedi and basically made the same mistakes the old Jedi order did. He felt people needed the legend, and not the actual Jedi so he went to Acht-to to die. He's done and the galaxy will sort itself out if the Jedi can't do it. Problem is that they need the legend, so his arc is him realizing he needs to save the galaxy again by living up to what people expect out of the Jedi.

    He trains Rey.
    He confronts his failure in Kylo Ren and moves on.
    He manifests across the galaxy and becomes the invincible, skilled, beacon of hope the Resistance needs in its darkest hour to protect the Republic he and so many others fought to protect.

    Yeah he starts bitter, who wouldn't be? But Luke makes a triumphant return and is literally more powerful than the First Order could ever imagine. He becomes the legend people need and its justified in Luke unlike a large majority of the older Jedi. That's the reason for the scene with the kids at the end. He becomes something to inspire a whole new generation of people and something for Rey and the following Jedi to live up to.
    It was great, but the First Order sucks. None of their characters are competent.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    It was great, but the First Order sucks. None of their characters are competent.
    Hux doesn't seem like a competent underling, Phasma needs to stay dead this time.

    Other than that there isn't much to show with the bad guys. Snoke's guards are effective and both Rey and Kylo Ren had to team-up to beat them. The pilots remain the most effective across the OT and ST. The guys in the walkers didn't even go down, I don't think any walker actually got destroyed in this one. The stormtroopers didn't even do enough to go either way.

    If anything the commanders may be erring on the side of Rebels but not by much. It's just that the bits that sucked from the last film are pretty much put to the side but since they are in it so much you notice. Overall the fighting force is pretty good, it's just that Hux, and Phasma should've just left or stayed dead.
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  14. #89
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    It was great, but the First Order sucks. None of their characters are competent.
    For some reason CBR has some of the most staunchest First Order defenders I have ever seen. Go ahead, say something about Kylo Ren or Phasma.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    For some reason CBR had some of the most staunchest First Order defenders I have ever seen. Go ahead, say something about Kylo Ren or Phasma.
    Phasma still does not get much of a pass. For as much of a big deal as people try to make her it's not shown on film.
    Kylo Ren killed his father and led to the death of Luke. He has a hand in two OT hero deaths. Kylo Ren as well killed Snoke whom beat Vader outright by seizing his opportunity to take control and no one but Hux questioned him. He further decimated what was left of the Resistance and proved more than a match for Rey.
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

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