Star Wars The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*

[Buried Alien]

Last Jedi has a rating of 56% on Rotten Tomatoes for audiences... That's the lowest for any Star Wars movie ever (yes, even lower than Attack of the clones and Phantom Menace). This speaks VOLUMES.

Killing off Luke Skywalker, a ballsy/risky move, was bound to depress that number. I think everybody was blindsided by that.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Slowpokeking]

The thing is that nobody is expecting Kylo Ren to do it. Even Snoke who knows his thoughts doesn't realize the lightsaber moving is also the one next to him. What do any of them have to suspect out of Kylo Ren who has shown obedience to Snoke? Going farther than that, Snoke even took the lightsaber from Rey. Snoke's loyal enforcer is going to execute Rey, Snoke has demonstrated he can put Kylo Ren down, and Snoke has the lightsaber. As far as anyone is concerned the threat is Rey, not the guy who has shown nothing but loyalty prior to this point. Rey is the clear threat and so long as Snoke's attention is directed at Kylo Ren, he's safe. What he doesn't suspect is the method in which he is killed, none of them do. The force also does not have a visual (usually), so if one does notice the saber not only is it too quick to do anything about it but who can tell if it's Rey, Ren, or Snoke?

The guard are in this movie literally for a fight scene. But they are proven effective because of how the scene plays out. You don't need a villain to win to be threatening. Both our villain and hero have to team-up to best a room full of these guys and on their own can't do it. It's clear that if only one of them is in the room the guard would succeed and Snoke would live, but since both them worked together they succeed which plays to the dynamic of balance. The point is that the hero and villain succeed not because they are better than the other, but both worked in unison to win. When things are in balance (both Rey helping Ren) they can defeat the guard as otherwise they struggle and risk death.

Palpatine's guard got sent away because the fight was between Vader and Luke. Palpatine wants a new apprentice or keep his current one. Either way it's a fight to see who is better and having two guards takes away from "tryouts".

Really? Treachery is the way of the Sith and Dark Siders. Palpatine is already an example of it. Their duty is to watch their leader's safety, any weird thing should be handled and mentioned by them, which they failed to do so.

Snoke is a Dark Sider for sure, and you know how common betrayal is among them. Why would they ignore the potential danger? They are unfit for duty obviously.

[SuperiorIronman]

Really? Treachery is the way of the Sith and Dark Siders. Palpatine is already an example of it. Their duty is to watch their leader's safety, any weird thing should be handled and mentioned by them, which they failed to do so.

Snoke is a Dark Sider for sure, and you know how common betrayal is among them. Why would they ignore the potential danger? They are unfit for duty obviously.

Plageouis slept in a place where Sidious could reach him with the rule of two in place
Maul didn't suspect Sidious would replace him despite being formally trained since childhood as a sithlord knowing full well he has to usurp Sidious himself or be replaced
Dooku didn't suspect he was getting swapped for Anakin despite knowing Palpatine, and knowing what he did to Maul.
Vader didn't suspect Palpatine would replace him for several potential candidates following his failure on Mustafar
Sidious didn't suspect Vader despite electrocuting his son in front of him knowing Anakin is tied to Padme and that could go through his son (that and giving Luke the offer).

This actually has a pretty good precedent in the franchise and they've all died from lapses in judgement. While Snoke and Kylo Ren are not Sith, they do imitate them and are up to date on power dynamics, Kylo Ren especially. Not really something his guards might've known even considering how Snoke took down Kylo Ren earlier.

We know Palpatine's guards knew, we don't know if Snoke do or why they would know.

[Slowpokeking]

Plageouis slept in a place where Sidious could reach him with the rule of two in place
Maul didn't suspect Sidious would replace him despite being formally trained since childhood as a sithlord knowing full well he has to usurp Sidious himself or be replaced
Dooku didn't suspect he was getting swapped for Anakin despite knowing Palpatine, and knowing what he did to Maul.
Vader didn't suspect Palpatine would replace him for several potential candidates following his failure on Mustafar
Sidious didn't suspect Vader despite electrocuting his son in front of him knowing Anakin is tied to Padme and that could go through his son (that and giving Luke the offer).

This actually has a pretty good precedent in the franchise and they've all died from lapses in judgement. While Snoke and Kylo Ren are not Sith, they do imitate them and are up to date on power dynamics, Kylo Ren especially. Not really something his guards might've known even considering how Snoke took down Kylo Ren earlier.

We know Palpatine's guards knew, we don't know if Snoke do or why they would know.

Quite of them actually knew, like Dooku and Vader were actually trying to overthrow their master, Maul was also building his own powerhouse after he came back. Plagueis died in his sleep, and they also got a lot of achievement to prove they are competent villains.

The guards aren't at "high on power" mood, they weren't sleeping or got some duty/goal like turning someone to the dark side, why didn't they pay attention?

[Carabas]

They are responsible for his safety, why would they move their sight away from their leader and the super dangerous weapon near him?

Because the weapon was obviously not dangerous. It was Snoke's trophy and he had demonstrated complete control over it.

[SuperiorIronman]

Quite of them actually knew, like Dooku and Vader were actually trying to overthrow their master, Maul was also building his own powerhouse after he came back. Plagueis died in his sleep, and they also got a lot of achievement to prove they are competent villains.

The guards aren't at "high on power" mood, they weren't sleeping or got some duty/goal like turning someone to the dark side, why didn't they pay attention?

That sword is on Snoke's chair, they surround Snoke and may not be in direct line of sight, Snoke was demonstrating control over the situation (Snoke who took the saber), nobody suspects Kylo Ren else why let him in the room? The weapon itself is also not the dangerous part, it's the wielder and I'm not under the impression any lightsaber just activates on its own. If Snoke is powerful enough to handle Rey as he was, and Kylo Ren is on the other side of the room (in a place simmilarly to where he was put down earlier), why are they looking at the lightsaber if you have three force users in the same room with no way of telling who is moving it?
Even if one did notice how are they expected to react to it if all it takes is for the hilt to be moved and activated? The function as guards is not a factor here since there is no reasonable answer for them to respond and as I said are only present for the dichotomy of the later fight scene.

[the nomad]

Killing off Luke Skywalker, a ballsy/risky move, was bound to depress that number. I think everybody was blindsided by that.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Ballsy- Yes, Risky- Yes, Uneccessary- Yes. Blindsided- Not really. If they'll kill Han, then anybody is on the table. I read a post somewhere and it stated that Disney is killing the old cast to make way for a new cast, Just so they don't have to pay them to keep appearing in a full movie. A glorified cameo cost less than a full movie paycheck. I kinda agree with that statement and with what's happening.

[Slowpokeking]

Because the weapon was obviously not dangerous. It was Snoke's trophy and he had demonstrated complete control over it.

It is able to slice him in half within seconds.

[Slowpokeking]

That sword is on Snoke's chair, they surround Snoke and may not be in direct line of sight, Snoke was demonstrating control over the situation (Snoke who took the saber), nobody suspects Kylo Ren else why let him in the room? The weapon itself is also not the dangerous part, it's the wielder and I'm not under the impression any lightsaber just activates on its own. If Snoke is powerful enough to handle Rey as he was, and Kylo Ren is on the other side of the room (in a place simmilarly to where he was put down earlier), why are they looking at the lightsaber if you have three force users in the same room with no way of telling who is moving it?
Even if one did notice how are they expected to react to it if all it takes is for the hilt to be moved and activated? The function as guards is not a factor here since there is no reasonable answer for them to respond and as I said are only present for the dichotomy of the later fight scene.

And the Jedi could still use it through telekinesis. It's not something new.

There is no "nobody suspect someone" for personal guards, otherwise they are failing their duty, especially when we are talking about Sith/Dark side apprentice. The lightsaber was close to Snoke and could cause damage to him, it's their duty to alarm their leader and no.

[SuperiorIronman]

And the Jedi could still use it through telekinesis. It's not something new.

There is no "nobody suspect someone" for personal guards, otherwise they are failing their duty, especially when we are talking about Sith/Dark side apprentice. The lightsaber was close to Snoke and could cause damage to him, it's their duty to alarm their leader and no.

YES. JEDI.
As far as anyone in that room knows is that Kylo Ren is loyal to Snoke and Snoke himself suspects as much. Snoke did not feel he was in any danger with Kylo Ren in the room. Snoke demonstrated complete control over Rey. So if she tried anything it means nothing if Snoke is only going to stop her again. Kylo Ren is a non-threat to Snoke since he was smacked down earlier in the film effortlessly and in Snoke's line of sight, and besides that has shown his loyalty. So the only one the guard should be looking at is Rey.

The lightsaber and its time to ignition is also very short. It hardly is a minute on that chair where more pressing matters is going on across the throne room. If Kylo Ren isn't going to do it if Snoke thinks he's loyal, then looking to the immediate threat in Rey makes sense.

[the nomad]

YES. JEDI.
As far as anyone in that room knows is that Kylo Ren is loyal to Snoke and Snoke himself suspects as much. Snoke did not feel he was in any danger with Kylo Ren in the room. Snoke demonstrated complete control over Rey. So if she tried anything it means nothing if Snoke is only going to stop her again. Kylo Ren is a non-threat to Snoke since he was smacked down earlier in the film effortlessly and in Snoke's line of sight, and besides that has shown his loyalty. So the only one the guard should be looking at is Rey.

The lightsaber and its time to ignition is also very short. It hardly is a minute on that chair where more pressing matters is going on across the throne room. If Kylo Ren isn't going to do it if Snoke thinks he's loyal, then looking to the immediate threat in Rey makes sense.

No matter which way you slice it, Snoke's death was one of the many big WTF moments of the movie (And not in a good way IMO.)

[SuperiorIronman]

No matter which way you slice it, Snoke's death was one of the many big WTF moments of the movie (And not in a good way IMO.)

I'm not saying it's good or bad. This was about guard reaction times, safety measures, what the fight meant, etc. People are welcome to have opinions on favorite scenes though.

[regg215]

Honestly think this was the worst Star wars outside of Phantom Menace ( have a hard time imagining anyone will ever destroy a movie like Jar Jar ever again). The story was incredibly boring and none of the character moments felt earned at all. Rey is still basically in the same place at the end of this movie as she was in the first. Where she is basically incredibly strong with the force with little to no training and no explanation as to why. The only thing that saves Rey as a character is that Daisy Ridley is a good actress who is incredibly likeable. However from an overall story standpoint Rey is basically important because the story says she is but never actually gives us a reason why other than "there must be balance in the force". Finn and Poe are basically the same in this movie as they were in the first, in the original trilogy and prequels all the characters seemed to grow over the course of their respective trilogy. Where as the new characters just stayed exactly the same.

Also The entire casino scene was just so useless and added nothing to the movie's plot what so ever. That entire scene seemed like Disney or the Director had decided to shoehorn in some message about animal cruelty and economic inequality, which is fine if you do it well or tie it into the plot in some interesting way but that scene was so hamfisted in execution that it reminded me of when a CW show tries to deal with social issues.

While I can respect that they wanted to take some chances, all of the big decisions they made in this movie fell really flat to me. In the OT Vader Killing the Emperor was shocking because over 3 films the emperor was built as this mythical figure who had complete control over Vader. When Kylo kills Snoke you feel nothing because Snoke was yet another character in this new trilogy who the story says is important but never actually gives an explanation as to why. I mean this guy was apparently strong enough to corrupt Kylo away from the influence of his parents and Uncle but then Kylo just all the sudden randomly decides to kill him. I am all for them changing it up and not having Kylo turn good and Kill the "emperor" with heroic intent like Vader but the fact that Snoke was basically just some character you barely know, really took away from the impact of that moment. Same with Phasma, who was set up as the boba fett of this trilogy. However Fett actually beat solo in empire, there was a reason to dislike his character but Phasma never had any moment of triumph and as a result her death had zero impact.

The biggest issue I have with this film is that it really destroys so much of the original trilogy. Luke's story goes from being nobody who ends up becoming a jedi and destroying the empire to suicidal old guy who views himself as a loser and just wants to die alone. The idea that Luke who never gave up on Darth Freaking Vader and believed in the good in him decided that he was going to kill Ben just went against everything about the character we knew. Luke basically reminded me of the version of Wolverine that we saw in Logan. It makes sense for Logan to act that way but for a character like Luke, it makes no sense at all and really went against who the character was established to be. Add in that Leia basically turned into an ineffective leader, who can't rally anyone to help them even after they destroyed the Starkiller base at the end of TFA. All that together really made me feel like the people in charge of Star Wars now, have little love for characters from the Original trilogy. (I mean Even admiral ackbar gets killed off screen) The idea that the heroes of the rebellion who destroyed the empire,turned out the way they did is so depressing. All the good things at the end of the first trilogy were just basically erased by the new trilogy. Having Leia/Han separating, Han being murdered by his own child, Luke viewing himself as a failure,and the empire ending up coming back like nothing happened, heck even Vader's sacrifice at the end of ROTJ basically means nothing because the empire just came back stronger. None of those are stories that I ever would have wanted to see in any way.

While I am not a huge fan of the overall direction of this new trilogy, TFA was such a strong movie plot wise and Boyega and Ridley were so likeable that I was willing to look past all the storylines that I was sad to see. TFA treated Han with a lot of resepect and while it's not how I would have liked to see Han's story end it was at least consistent to his character. However the Last Jedi really didn't have any of the strong elements that TFA had and really went completely against the character of who Luke was. In the end it really came off to me as an attempt by disney to say the original characters were never really that good and "look how much better our new characters are".

[Cevoice]

I'm a story first, action second type of person. (Harry Potter type of movies) but most movie goers aren't.

[ClanAskani]

Killing off Luke Skywalker, a ballsy/risky move, was bound to depress that number. I think everybody was blindsided by that.

Killing off Luke wasn't unexpected nor the reason people hate TLJ. A lot of people expected him to be killed off because he's the Yoda/Obi-Wan character of the sequel trilogy.

But committing character assassination by turning Luke into a bitter, broken failure hiding on an island waiting die after he tried to kill his teenage nephew - that's something fans didn't expect. Fans wait 30 years to see their hero on the big screen and are told - your hero is a failure.

What would comic books fans say if Peter Parker or Superman or Captain America were shown in a similar way? Would Marvel or DC even allow it? Even if there are alternate universe versions (say Wolverine in Logan), it's not the same. There's a reboot and you get the original comic book character back. But now it's canon that Luke was a pathetic loser.

What would Harry Potter fans say if a sequel series of books had Harry hiding on an island refusing to do magic after trying to kill Ron and Hermione's kid?

Why is it somehow expected that Star Wars fans are suppose to be fine with Luke's character being destroyed when other franchises would never consider ruining their hero.