Batman issue #37 Preview

[WontonGirl]

That's fair I guess, but it does seem a shame to avoid something you might find charming and fun due to the status quo choices in franchises that King is only paying lip service to (the Jon thing) and not something he has any control over. I'm not reading either of the main Superman books right now because the current direction doesn't interest me (the post-Crisis resurgence and I'm not terribly interested in ANY kid being present), but that status quo isn't going to prevent me from reading something with Clark and Lois that I DO find interesting.

Yeah I mean the thing with Holly. I think for me, King sometimes needs to fill in his gaps or continue with the story. Meaning, the next issue should had been the follow-up with what Holly's decision was. OR they could had at least been talking about what they were going to do with Holly in the next issue. That way, you at least know what is going on and then they can move on to the next topic of discussion, which would had been calling Supes. That way, people who were concerned about that outcome would had gotten some answers.

So I will say that is something I noticed with King's writing.

[Assam]

That's fair I guess, but it does seem a shame to avoid something you might find charming and fun due to the status quo choices in franchises that King is only paying lip service to (the Jon thing) and not something he has any control over. I'm not reading either of the main Superman books right now because the current direction doesn't interest me (the post-Crisis resurgence and I'm not terribly interested in ANY kid being present), but that status quo isn't going to prevent me from reading something with Clark and Lois that I DO find interesting.

It's not a matter of choosing to avoid it. It's a matter of being able to recognize the kind of stuff I like (See: This scene), but being so perturbed by other things going in the universe that I can't enjoy it. I am not capable of seeing these stories in a vacuum.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah I mean the thing with Holly. I think for me, King sometimes needs to fill in his gaps or continue with the story. Meaning, the next issue should had been the follow-up with what Holly's decision was. OR they could had at least been talking about what they were going to do with Holly in the next issue. That way, you at least know what is going on and then they can move on to the next topic of discussion, which would had been calling Supes. That way, people who were concerned about that outcome would had gotten some answers.

So I will say that is something I noticed with King's writing.

Yes that would help, though I don't consider it the same thing as Salina herself writing her off. And I still don't consider her evil or irredeemable.

[Assam]

And I still don't consider her evil or irredeemable.

Aside from truly pure evil characters, I see very few characters as irredeemable,(A belief in redemption sort of comes with being a Cass stan), but she still committed an OOC, evil act and I don't think King or anyone else is interested in a redemption story or redeeming her at all.

[K Nikk]

Yes that would help, though I don't consider it the same thing as Salina herself writing her off. And I still don't consider her evil or irredeemable.

There are characters like the Punisher who would go out and do what she did, and be cheered on for it. It sort of felt like an anti-hero type of thing, so I've been interested in how it will turn out (especially with the Talia link as well). Holly could become more interesting, in my eyes at least.

I think Selina understands why Holly did what she did otherwise she wouldn't have taken the blame for it. And also why she's leaving it up to Holly what to do next.

I think King will get into that when it's an issue about it rather than dropping information in between, maybe that lets him craft the story more cleanly than assuming someone has remembered a piece of information that was dropped in an-unrelated scene. I don't know. I've been ok with it so far, but I've also been more ok with the situation in general and started reading after the reveal about Holly came out so there wasn't as much suspense waiting for the slow reveal.

I'm also ok with the periods of upbeatness between darker chapters, as the world would be to bleak if characters weren't allowed to break free of that from time to time.

Cannot wait to read this, looks fun.

[WontonGirl]

Yes that would help, though I don't consider it the same thing as Salina herself writing her off. And I still don't consider her evil or irredeemable.

I mean to be honest, if King had used a nobody from Selina's past, it wouldn't have had the same effect. I mean, if it was a nobody, then Batman would had probably had that person in custody by now. So using Holly made sense.

As far as redemption. It's all about how that person connects to the hero of the story. Some people are just plot armor at this point. Joker isn't going anywhere until DC closes it's doors. All of these villains and anti-villains are just there for the heroes to beat up on. NONE of these superheroes truly get rid of any of them so at this point, they all can be in the redemption but. Should they be? Of course not.

[WontonGirl]

There are characters like the Punisher who would go out and do what she did, and be cheered on for it. It sort of felt like an anti-hero type of thing, so I've been interested in how it will turn out (especially with the Talia link as well). Holly could become more interesting, in my eyes at least.

I think Selina understands why Holly did what she did otherwise she wouldn't have taken the blame for it. And also why she's leaving it up to Holly what to do next.

I think King will get into that when it's an issue about it rather than dropping information in between, maybe that lets him craft the story more cleanly than assuming someone has remembered a piece of information that was dropped in an-unrelated scene. I don't know. I've been ok with it so far, but I've also been more ok with the situation in general and started reading after the reveal about Holly came out so there wasn't as much suspense waiting for the slow reveal.

I'm also ok with the periods of upbeatness between darker chapters, as the world would be to bleak if characters weren't allowed to break free of that from time to time.

Cannot wait to read this, looks fun.

Oh yeah if Wolverine or Frank had done that, nobody would had blinked. BUT they are looked upon as Anti-Heros. People throw that word around now and some people who are being called Anti-Heros are really not Anti-Heros.

Everything else I agree with. I think King does have a gift for coming back to an older plot. So he will come back to Holly at some point and I don't buy for a second that Talia is just all good with Selina.

[Assam]

There are characters like the Punisher who would go out and do what she did, and be cheered on for it. It sort of felt like an anti-hero type of thing, so I've been interested in how it will turn out (especially with the Talia link as well). Holly could become more interesting, in my eyes at least.

The problems with this POV are that 1) Holly isn't an anti-hero and never has been and 2) While it's fine if you never found Holly interesting, plenty of others do. In my case, far more so than Selina.

[K Nikk]

Oh yeah if Wolverine or Frank had done that, nobody would had blinked. BUT they are looked upon as Anti-Heros. People throw that word around now and some people who are being called Anti-Heros are really not Anti-Heros.

Everything else I agree with. I think King does have a gift for coming back to an older plot. So he will come back to Holly at some point and I don't buy for a second that Talia is just all good with Selina.

I just meant that the action of pursuing and killing the people who blew up an orphanage seems like an anti-hero type of thing - something the Punisher would do. Certainly not that Holly is one, as she did this because of a personal connection. However - if she were to turn into a Punisher type of character ("I've already gone too far, I can only live with myself if I make it a mission, a purpose") and this is just her starting point... I'm not very familiar with female characters like that though, I don't have any reference points for it so I don't know what that would mean.

[K Nikk]

The problems with this POV are that 1) Holly isn't an anti-hero and never has been and 2) While it's fine if you never found Holly interesting, plenty of others do. In my case, far more so than Selina.

I said "more" interesting, not that I didn't find her interesting before. I admit I don't know much about her. I was reading the wiki articles and her history has frequently been an unhappy one in many iterations. Abused, drug addictions, child prostitution, frequently a victim etc. Which is the version of the comic that you are a fan of, I want to look those up to get a better appreciation to understand why this turn is so much worse.

[Frontier]

I said "more" interesting, not that I didn't find her interesting before. I admit I don't know much about her. I was reading the wiki articles and her history has frequently been an unhappy one in many iterations. Abused, drug addictions, child prostitution, frequently a victim etc. Which is the version of the comic that you are a fan of, I want to look those up to get a better appreciation to understand why this turn is so much worse.

Assam is probably referencing Holly in the Brubaker run, which is dramatically different from how King's written her.

[WontonGirl]

I just meant that the action of pursuing and killing the people who blew up an orphanage seems like an anti-hero type of thing - something the Punisher would do. Certainly not that Holly is one, as she did this because of a personal connection. However - if she were to turn into a Punisher type of character ("I've already gone too far, I can only live with myself if I make it a mission, a purpose") and this is just her starting point... I'm not very familiar with female characters like that though, I don't have any reference points for it so I don't know what that would mean.

Yeah I mean, Holly, it didn't bother me that it was Holly. This is the same girl who stabbed Bruce in the leg and told the other guys to get him and he was trying to save HER! This is Year One Holly.

Everybody you help or run with in the past doesn't make them your lifetime friend. Especially if you are not engaging in the same activities you used to do.

[Frontier]

Yeah I mean, Holly, it didn't bother me that it was Holly. This is the same girl who stabbed Bruce in the leg and told the other guys to get him and he was trying to save HER!

Everybody you help or run with in the past doesn't make them your lifetime friend. Especially if you are not engaging in the same activities you used to do.

It still feels like a huge jump .

Of course, it probably doesn't help that a lot of people's idea of Holly comes from the Brubaker run and King's handling of her has been totally the opposite of that.

I still say it should've been Maggie.

[WontonGirl]

Assam is probably referencing Holly in the Brubaker run, which is dramatically different from how King's written her.

What about the Holly after Brubaker's run? Didn't she take over for Catwoman in Pfeifer's run after Selina had Helena and was making some mistakes that caused Batman to be "concerned"? or did I mix up the writers.

[WontonGirl]

It still feels like a huge jump .

Of course, it probably doesn't help that a lot of people's idea of Holly comes from the Brubaker run and King's handling of her has been totally the opposite of that.

I still say it should've been Maggie.

Yeah but without Miller's Holly, there really wouldn't be any Holly. You only know Brubaker's version of Holly if you were reading Brubaker's Catwoman. If you were NOT reading Brubaker's Catwoman, then that's the version you know.

And speaking of Maggie, how would she had been able to do it? Wasn't she messed up really bad???