Darth Vader runs the LotR gauntlet

[Sharpandpointies]

He can wreck movie Maiar at any rate.

There are no movie Maiar.

Unless you're talking about Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, the Balrog and Sauron...but it's worth noting that Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast are Istari, and thus extremely limited in their capabilities (and shouldn't be counted as Maiar, really). The Balrog is confined to a physical form and still has some exceptional feats in the movie, and Sauron is almost featless but would probably still wreck Movie Vader unless it's Movie Vader against 'I'm just an eye' Sauron, in which case yeah, I figure Vader could take THAT one.

But my question is, how was it Glorfindel manage to kill a Balrog? How did Finrod fight evenly with one? Are you saying they are just as powerful as a Maiar? And in what way? Physical? Magical? Or is it just skill?

As Pen notes, it's a combination of being First Age Eldar who are completely ridiculous physically, as well as having what everyone would call 'magic', as well as having effectively magical gear which, in some cases, was made in the Valinor, as well as having been trained by the Valar and the Maiar, etc. And having some measure of spiritual potency beyond that of mortals, to boot (they are immortals themselves).

And even with all of that, barely managing to pull off suicidal wins against Balrogs. Basically, these are dramatic moments for the characters where they dig deeply and manage to do crazy-but-not-out-of-the-question stuff, similarly to a runner managing to break his all-time record or somesuch.

I mean, let's look at how these wins went down for the people who actually MANAGED it.

1. Ecthelion - we don't have an in-canon explanation for the fight, except that both Gothmog and Ecthelion - who was pretty much #2 badass in an entire city full of badasses - died during the fight. Gothmog had no intention of dying, but this was 'last stand' moment for Ecthelion, who probably went into the fight looking to get a tie if it got Gothmog out of there. This is held up by the non-canon, original version of the story, wherein Ecthelion basically gets his ass handed to him but hangs in long enough to bullrush Gothmog off a wall and take them both for a long fall into a pool of holy water (effectively), and 'drown' Gothmog. It's BS, because the water shouldn't have killed Gothmog (Balrogs were written weaker back then), but Tolkien clearly has the idea in his head that Ecthelion - full of rage and desperation - is in this not to 'win a duel' but willing to die in order to make sure Gothmog goes with him. And does, despite being overmatched (the whole business of kamikaze attacks to take out something much more strong);

2. Glorfindel - same deal as Ecthelion. Glorfindel was trying to protect refugees from a Balrog, and heroically engages it. He probably knows he's going to die, similarly to Ecthelion (and while a Balrog isn't the same a Gothmog, Glorfindel probably isn't on the same level of ass-kicking as Ecthelion). He takes the Balrog down in a bitter battle that ends with them both falling into the abyss (the Balrogs seem to have an issue with falling).

In both cases, it's a couple of notable First Age Noldor going kamikaze in a situation of pure desperation - a dramatic moment in the story, really. It's also fact that before this, ZERO Balrogs had ever been killed by Eldar, and this was a pretty huge thing.

Fingon fighting evenly with Gothmog? Fingon, son of Fingolfin, raised and trained in Valinor, High King of the Noldor, probably kitted out as best he could be, and in the fight of his life, manages to hold even with Gothmog...for a while. We don't know how that would have gone down in the end, because unlike Fëanor, Fingon instantly loses the moment another Balrog enters the fray.

Granted, one on one I'd give the fight to Fëanor or Fingolfin against Balrogs, and Fingon fought Gothmog to a standstill so maybe him as well against an 'average' Balrog. But after that trio? Odds are not good. MAYBE Maedhros, or people like that - third generation noble Noldor with a rep for being rear-booters, like Fingon (really, out of the Sons of Fëanor, Maedhros was the only one with said rep, though Maglor - my favourite - also lived through all of the crap of the First Age on the front lines).

Toss Galadriel on top of that, what with her being supposedly easily as physically capable as a male Noldor in Valinor, and having all kinds of greater knowledge of the mystical side of things to boot (and feats like 'busts up Sauron's summer home, personally'). Edit: Maybe Turgon as well, who was also a son of Fingolfin and well-known for being a head-kicker.

It's a short list, people who I would say are likely capable of taking on a standard Balrog and coming out ahead (ie, not having to kill themselves in order to barely manage a tie).

That thing Finrod did with the werewolf is for me, the 2nd most badass thing anyone ever did in Middle Earth, eclipsed only by Fingolfin glowing it up such that Morgoth’s army ran away screaming “****, Orome’s a-comin’!”

I freaking love Finrod (Captain Noldamarica, as Pendaran puts it, and why not?). Dude is awesome on so many levels. Though I agree with Pen that for me, Húrin's battle at the Fens of Serech is really up there. I guess I'd run those three instances as a tie-game: Fingolfin, Húrin, and Finrod's lonely, desperate battle in the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

...dammit, now I have to add Glorfindel going all Michael Strogoff on a Balrog in the Pass of Eagles. I cannot decide, I must have them all!!!

In any case, the takeaway from this is that all of these things? Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Húrin, Fingolfin, Fëanor...in every case, this was a Last Stand™ moment, where the character basically goes suicidally berserk and doesn't expect to make it through the fight (one might argue that Fëanor expected to make it through, but let's face it, Fëanor essentially spent his life either brooding unhealthily or suicidally berserk...dude was unhinged).

Tolkien was big on the idea that this kind of thing brought out the 'best' in people, with regards to their capabilities in a fight.

[Pendaran]

In any case, the takeaway from this is that all of these things? Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Húrin, Fingolfin, Fëanor...in every case, this was a Last Stand™ moment, where the character basically goes suicidally berserk and doesn't expect to make it through the fight (one might argue that Fëanor expected to make it through, but let's face it, Fëanor essentially spent his life either brooding unhealthily or suicidally berserk...dude was unhinged).

Feanor was intending to kill his way right to Angband, that was frankly more of a desperate stand for the Balrogs against Feanor ;p When their response to him boiled down to the equivalent of Gothmog proclaiming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c it's kind of a thing.

That and, when faced with his onrushing kids as a group, they fled.

[Sharpandpointies]

Feanor was intending to kill his way right to Angband, that was frankly more of a desperate stand for the Balrogs against Feanor ;p When their response to him boiled down to the equivalent of Gothmog proclaiming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c it's kind of a thing.

Yep.

The whole thing happened that Fëanor, with his customary cool, rational strategizing, ended up way ahead of the big army (which had won the battle) and cut off. He then lost all of his friends. I kind of view that as his berserk charge turning into a Last Stand due to amazingly poor self-control (Fëanor...self-control...hah), myself, but I honestly wonder if Fëanor even realized things were going to heck for him.

Dude was always pretty much in insanity mode when violence started, is what I'm saying.

That and, when faced with his onrushing kids as a group, they fled.

Absolutely. Kids absolutely enraged, their army, etc. It's important to note that this was a battle that the Noldor WON - they had already pretty much murdered Morgoth's armies, and Fëanor caught up with them (with his small force) while they were retreating. So it's not really surprising that when an enraged army of Noldor, led by some pretty stalwart fighters, began rampaging toward them, Morgoth's forces continued their retreat and ended up taking shelter in Angband. ^_^

[Pendaran]

What I'm noting is that considering stuff like that he was extended fighting without concern even while lit up with fire, I don't really think he activated some "Desperate Last Stand Powers. Activate!" mode. That was not his perspective on events. As the book notes, he was undismayed. That was just Feanor. He was just that insane.

It's not some shame on the Balrogs that they had to take him on en masse. There's no special condition or excuse for it. He was just Feanor. He was just on that much crack.

I don't really feel like Last Stand Eldar should be this full out thing, it verges on one of those board memes that get a life of their own from not all that much.

[The Dork Knight]

Fingon fighting evenly with Gothmog? Fingon, son of Fingolfin, raised and trained in Valinor, High King of the Noldor, probably kitted out as best he could be, and in the fight of his life, manages to hold even with Gothmog...for a while. We don't know how that would have gone down in the end, because unlike Fëanor, Fingon instantly loses the moment another Balrog enters the fray

It's worth noting that unlike Feanor, Fingon was attacked from behind and was specifically the last one standing as opposed to Feanor having a "few friends" with him

Though Feanor also keeps fighting after getting wrapped in fire, while Fingon is immediately slain after that

[Sharpandpointies]

What I'm noting is that considering stuff like that he was extended fighting without concern even while lit up with fire, I don't really think he activated some "Desperate Last Stand Powers. Activate!" mode. That was not his perspective on events. As the book notes, he was undismayed. That was just Feanor. He was just that insane.

It's not some shame on the Balrogs that they had to take him on en masse. There's no special condition or excuse for it. He was just Feanor. He was just on that much crack.

I don't really feel like Last Stand Eldar should be this full out thing, it verges on one of those board memes that get a life of their own from not all that much.

I think you've missed my point. I may not have been clear enough.

I'm not advocating some 'Last Stand Eldar' kind of thing, where magically they get more potent or the like. I'm talking about 'high-end feats consistent with the characters' presentations', to put it in Rumbles terms. These things are within the characters' capabilities. I merely view them as 'high-end feats', the sort of things we get when the characters are pushed hard. It's no different than Batman lifting 1000 lbs over his head for an extended period, or fighting the Sensei with a bloody walking stick stuck through him and broken bones. It's not something we see all the time, but it's within the characters' capabilities and should be viewed as such.

It's their best stuff, their top-end feats that are still sensible for the characters, is all.

And no, it's not me saying it's shameful for the Balrogs or anything, nor am I making excuses for the Balrogs. It would have been somewhat ridiculous had Fëanor been winning, but clearly he wasn't. He was, however, something they absolutely had to take on as a group, and couldn't manage alone, and even as a group they couldn't just put down like they did Fingon, much as (as I stated) Fingolfin would have been. The two of them stand pretty much head and shoulders above all of the other Noldor for rear-kicking potential, and that's just sensible given who they were, where they came from, etc.

As noted, I flat-out give Fëanor and Fingolfin the one-on-one fights against a Balrog. Zero questions there.

[Pendaran]

To say it another way, when Feanor's response to the fire of the Balrogs boiled down to "LOL", if, say, half the number he otherwise fought went at him, I wouldn't necessarily like the odds of the Balrogs. Not for nothing was he basically the mightiest of his kind.

[Pendaran]

It's worth noting that unlike Feanor, Fingon was attacked from behind and was specifically the last one standing as opposed to Feanor having a "few friends" with him

Though Feanor also keeps fighting after getting wrapped in fire, while Fingon is immediately slain after that

Was going to say, Fingon gets wrapped in fire and he's done. Feanor gets wrapped in fire and he laughs and keeps fighting.

[Sharpandpointies]

To say it another way, when Feanor's response to the fire of the Balrogs boiled down to "LOL", if, say, half the number he otherwise fought went at him, I wouldn't necessarily like the odds of the Balrogs. Not for nothing was he basically the mightiest of his kind.

I am not entirely sanguine on the odds of two or even three Balrogs against Finwë’s fighting sons, myself, given I’d give each of them 10/10 against a single Balrog.

[Cody]

So these Elves beating these Balrogs(beings that rip apart a mountain just by fighting one another)did so mostly with skill, or were they more powerful in someway?

[Siriel]

So these Elves beating these Balrogs(beings that rip apart a mountain just by fighting one another)

Balrogs don't really do that? The only instance of anything of the sort that I can think of is Durin's Bane "smiting the mountainside" as he dies, which doesn't really invoke him tearing apart the mountain itself.

Likewise Gandalf described their clash as the summit of the mountain being covered in assorted magical elements, but he didn't really go "And then the mountain collapsed so we had to jump on the next one." ala the Epic of Gilgamesh.

[Cody]

Balrogs don't really do that? The only instance of anything of the sort that I can think of is Durin's Bane "smiting the mountainside" as he dies, which doesn't really invoke him tearing apart the mountain itself.

Likewise Gandalf described their clash as the summit of the mountain being covered in assorted magical elements, but he didn't really go "And then the mountain collapsed so we had to jump on the next one." ala the Epic of Gilgamesh.

I took it as them wrecking the mountain with their battle. Alright then, but that still doesn't answer by question. Were these Elves just more powerful than Maiar, or just really skilled?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I took it as them wrecking the mountain with their battle. Alright then, but that still doesn't answer by question. Were these Elves just more powerful than Maiar, or just really skilled?

It was pointed out, a few times, that First Age Eldar are extremely ridiculous as far as overall capacity, were generally trained up to match, were 'magic', and were generally kitted out in some extremely ridiculous gear as well.

So, if one had to over-simplify. "They were just that good", and it should be noted that they all still died.