The Chase and Finn's Subplot: *Objectively* the weak link in TLJ?

[godisawesome]

People are going to debate the core concepts of Rey being unrelated to any known character and Luke waiting around to die for years probably, but I'd argue both of those are truly subjective debate points; its hard to argue that Johnson didn't execute both ideas in this film about as flawlessly as he could. The issues with those are opinion based analysis of the film in the context of the saga as a whole. Generally, people happy with those plot elements are capable of defending them. They're strong, debatable points...

...But I don't see anyone really staunchly defending Finn's plot among the film's defenders. And while there's a bit of discussion about merits of the First Order chasing the Resistance, there seems to be more concensus to that segment being a genuine weakness. So is it a strong argument that these elements are objective weaknesses of the film? That these elements are true weaknesses of the film?

Think about it:

- The impetus for the plot is weak in two ways:
--- Holdo, while having a point and function in chewing out Poe and being antagonistic, doesn't give any good reasons for being silent during a high stress situation where hope is key; her quote later on only obfuscates the point.
--- Holdo and Leia's plan is deeply questionable; we'll evacuate in the transports and not be seen in these uncloaked plainly visible ships. The pragmatic idea behind it is strong, but the method makes no sense when we can see Snoke can just turn on his telescope and look at them.
- The conflict and answer they come up with to drive Finn's plot (computer tracking us--> need a slicer--> go get wrong slicer--> slicer predictably sells you out) is ultimately both convuluted and useless, since the only plot impact is negative (Leia and Holdo's "plan" found out) and again, kind of pathetic (look out a window!)
- The actual setup for the chase is a boring retread of ESB's chase without any of the excitement, and is heavily dependent on both deeply questionable military lore decisions, the most egregious break from Star Wras always casual relationship with physics, and resolved by a move that begs the question "Why didn't you do that before?"
--- The physics thing is largely consistent with the space-as-an-ocean theme from the other movies, but becomes irritating when you realize the only way the "chase them but don't catch them" plot is of space somehow has fluid friction and acceleration has some kind distance limit.
--- The FO having nothing capable of catching up to, cutting off, or providing fighter support to catch the Resistance Fleet boggles the mind and exposes plot convenience, as well as unfortunately ignoring support ships that the comics apparently accidentally created that now can't be brought up when talking about the subplot.
--- The hyperspace ram is beautiful, but begs the question "Why has no one done this amazing, shield ignoring move before?" Heck, why didn't the cruiser pilots do that when they evacuated their ships earlier? Why don't people just strap engines to asteroids and shoot them at each other! Could we not set this up better?
- Great actors largely wasted by doubling up functional roles into redundancy: we have Rose, an engineer, journeying alongside BB-8, a droid like all the other magic door openers from before, yet neither of them can solve the problem, so we go after a red herring cameo, then recruit Benecio Del Toro who portrays a character so I'll-defined he doesn't have a name and only gets interesting because of the actor.
- Finally, we waste the potential and aftershocks from TFA on Finn:
--- You want to comment on the rich and powerful abusing and neglecting the poor and vulnerable? We've got a literal former slave child soldier and villains who continue to kidnap little kids to make Stormtroopers. Why the hell aren't you using that?
--- Finn was the most dynamic character in TFA by far, and exited the film having gone full hero and being rewarded with an eviscerated spine. But we barely see any reaction to that at all. Kylo gets two scenes focusing on him reacting to a cut to his face; why doesn't Finn get anything like that?
--- Finn's undercover on the Supremacy. Back in his old homeland, but with new eyes. We should see him now realizing how everything the First Order does is an insult and injury inflicted upon him and his fellow troopers. But nope! Can't use anything logical like that to give the character a righteous edge!

What do you think?

[Carabas]

--- You want to comment on the rich and powerful abusing and neglecting the poor and vulnerable? We've got a literal former slave child soldier and villains who continue to kidnap little kids to make Stormtroopers. Why the hell aren't you using that?

Because it's more of "The First Order are bad people", and we already knew that.
The entire Canto Bight sidequest was about the other evils that allow the First Order to continue to exist and benefit from the war. Non-military, non-mystical evils, something Star Wars tends to neglect.[/QUOTE]

--- Finn's undercover on the Supremacy. Back in his old homeland, but with new eyes. We should see him now realizing how everything the First Order does is an insult and injury inflicted upon him and his fellow troopers. But nope! Can't use anything logical like that to give the character a righteous edge!

Him being an (ex-)Stormtrooper would make it a self-righteous edge.
Him proudly claiming the title "Rebel Scum" because of what he saw on Canto Bight, that is what you call a righteous edge!

[ChrisIII]

The hyperspace ram kind of reminds me of something from the Archie Goodwin/Al Williamson comic strips that involved the evacuation of Yavin, in which both a rebel ship *and* later, three Star Destroyers ram the Executer, slowing it down.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Evacuation_of_Yavin

According to Johnson there might've been a scene where Finn is recognized by his former Stormtrooper colleagues, and this would've been the Tom Hardy/Prince Harry and William scene.

[Cel]

IMO, Finn's subplot served four main purposes that may go forward into Episode IX:
1. It showed Finn going from being selfish (wanting to leave the Resistance to go after Rey) to ultimately being selfless (willing to die for the Resistance).
2. Showing Rose is a hero in her own right.
3. Establishing a bond/relationship between Finn and Rose.
4. Inspiring the slave kids in Canto Bight to believe in the Resistance and (towards the end) the legend of Luke Skywalker. They may be of the next generation of heroes.

[BeastieRunner]

I understood the subplot better than this poll.

[Jabare]

The subplot was actually the central premiss of the movie.


This movie is inherently about failure. Coping with failure, things not working out. No good deed goes on punished. etc. etc.

Every major character in this movie fails overall. Falls right on their face. This subplot emphasized that.

[Sighphi]

there was no reason for this other than to spew the few "lessons" it did.

This movie was almost like watching a saturday morning cartoon when it came to the writing.

[BeastieRunner]

The subplot was actually the central premiss of the movie.


This movie is inherently about failure. Coping with failure, things not working out. No good deed goes on punished. etc. etc.

Every major character in this movie fails overall. Falls right on their face. This subplot emphasized that.

This.

Even Yoda broke it down for us.

[brettc1]

Rose isn't a hero, she's a romantic fool.

If the Rebellion in the OT had followed her 'don't sacrifice yourself for the greater good - we only win if we all make it' logic, Palpatine would still be ruling the galaxy.

I mean for fraks' sake, the only reason you are all ALIVE right at this moment is that Holdo blew herself up to give you a chance! Maybe somebody should have dragged her kicking and screaming off the bridge and jumped into an escape pod with her while the rest of the escaping ships were shot down.

Stupid.

[C_Miller]

Objective is a tough word, but as someone who thought that this was a spectacular film, this is the part that left me the most cold. I didn't dislike parts of it. I liked most of what was done with Poe (though I understand that it was caused by script induced stupidity) and I liked Finn's story before he and Rose left the transport and after they reached Snoke's ship.

The only real part of it I had trouble with was the stuff on the planet. The planet to me was poorly conceived. I understand that it was one of our first dips into the opulence of the Star Wars universe, but it didn't achieve that lived in feel that Star Wars masters. It felt like a diversion from stories I was more invested in and felt a little like Rian Johnson was doing a backdoor pilot to a story he was closer to.

I think I would have enjoyed the move even more if they tightened the writing up around there.

[Grind]

It was like they wrote out the Jedi plot and then someone said "what about Finn and Poe?" I think they needed to spend more time on the evacuation on the planet and not just start with everyone in orbit. I really didn't feel any urgency in the chase. I really didn't care. It just felt like they had to have Finn and Poe do something because people expected to see them in the movie. Maybe if we shared some last moments with some of the crews of the ships that ran out of fuel and knew that was it for them.

[dkrook]

I think the execution was completely off for just a few different reasons. Number one I think that they should have matched a new character with an old character that would run parallel stories. There are three movies in this trilogy there are three old characters, then there are three new characters. The first movie should have focused on Finn and Han Solo in some manner. you can even have Han Solo still die and that will give you a point at which thin will take over his archetype or position of importance. The second movie should have focused on the character Rey and Luke Skywalker and their stories should have run parallel in context. The third movie should have brought everyone together toward the end but it should have focused on Poe and Leia. I believe that there is a way that you can even have kept the story almost the same while adhering to this concept. it would even allow for you to put more background to each of the new characters while catching us up on the life of the old characters.

[Cel]

Rose isn't a romantic fool--she wouldn't be in the Resistance at all if she was. "Don't sacrifice yourself for the greater good - we only win if we all make it." Nah, she was just saying you can't have a resistance and hope to win if everyone in it is dead. It's always better to live to fight another day if you can. It's definitely a different story if there's really no alternative, but if there is, then there's no reason to start calling on the fat lady just yet. Even during the Galactic Civil War, the Rebellion knew the value of packing up and leaving on both Yavin IV and Hoth rather than try to go out in a blaze of glory when they didn't have to...

[RikWriter]

Holdo's refusal to share the details of the plan with her subordinates is not just stupid and lazy writing, it also goes against every precept of modern warfare. You WANT all your troops to know the plan. They work smarter that way, and if you die, the plan goes on. The writers/director just didn't want the audience to know it so they had her keep it secret from Poe and his group for no real reason at all. if they'd done so much as say "we think there's a mole on board so we can't share the plan," it would have ameliorated this, but they didn't. Stupid, lazy writing/directing. Rian Johnson did a horrible job with the plot in general. The movie has themes, but it has no plot. It's as if Johnson had a theme in mind and several beautiful effects shots visualized and then slapped together the thinnest story he could be bothered to come up with to string those visuals together. It's very reminiscent of Batman V Superman.

[Cel]

Sooo...does anyone miss how Lucas or Abrams plotted things?