The Chase and Finn's Subplot: *Objectively* the weak link in TLJ?

[godisawesome]

I do know that some reports have Lucas irritating Kershner a bit with very producer-like complaints, and that he did sign off on. A lot of stuff even then. He *is* probably third thring in terms of making the movie behind Kershner and Kasdan, but it's still got his input in the final product.

[MagnusRex]

Rose isn't a romantic fool--she wouldn't be in the Resistance at all if she was. "Don't sacrifice yourself for the greater good - we only win if we all make it." Nah, she was just saying you can't have a resistance and hope to win if everyone in it is dead. It's always better to live to fight another day if you can. It's definitely a different story if there's really no alternative, but if there is, then there's no reason to start calling on the fat lady just yet. Even during the Galactic Civil War, the Rebellion knew the value of packing up and leaving on both Yavin IV and Hoth rather than try to go out in a blaze of glory when they didn't have to...

Nah, Rose is an idiot. Save Finn from saving the reminder of the resistance? In doing so she signed their death sentences. It made her speech worthless. But hey, at least she would have Finn all to herself right?

[Cel]

Nah, Rose is an idiot. Save Finn from saving the reminder of the resistance?

Nope. It was just a case that there was no need to go on a suicide run yet. People forget that Poe had given the order to break off and regroup.

In doing so she signed their death sentences.

See above.

It made her speech worthless.

Not really. Once again, you can't have a resistance if everyone in it is dead.

But hey, at least she would have Finn all to herself right?

Rose may have initially admired Finn for rejecting the First Order and participating in the mission to bring down Starkiller Base, but any deeper feelings may have been a spur-of-the-moment thing after her speeder crashed on Crait. For all she knew, she had just sacrificed herself for Finn and was on her way to join Paige. It'd be real interesting to see what happens when Rose regains consciousness...

[ClanAskani]

The reason there's such a negative split on TLJ is the problem with the plot and that a larger percentage of the audience doesn't buy in to a major part of the plot. I absolutely cannot watch any of the scenes with Holdo without wanting to scream at the screen about how stupid the entire plot is. It makes me physically angry.

If you don't buy into the slow speed chase, then it makes Rose & Finn's mission to Canto Bight even more pointless and completely a waste of time.

I don't think anyone gave any thought whatsoever. From Pablo Hidalgo's tweets, he seems like he was trying to find some justification for the militarization of hyperspace from past cartoons and other material, but never actually any logic applied to the plot.

And in the OT, there wasn't much information given about the Rebels or Imperials plans. Why was the Empire building the 2nd Death Star? The audience just accepted it. The more information given in TLJ, the more there is to say that it's stupid as heck.

[WebLurker]

A few thoughts:

--- Holdo, while having a point and function in chewing out Poe and being antagonistic, doesn't give any good reasons for being silent during a high stress situation where hope is key; her quote later on only obfuscates the point.

Did the movie establish that Holdo was keeping everything to herself or just not letting Poe in on the details? While I do think that plots built on lack of communication tend to be flimsy and I don't think that Holdo worked for me the way that she was supposed to as a character, I do think that her not telling Poe was reasonable; he's leader of a fighter squadron, not among the top brass; he was recently demoted for disobeying orders, and was being insubordinate for not being given information that was above his pay grade. The second time, after he realizes that she's fueling the transports, I think then it might've been a place to tell Poe (it probably would've calmed him down, given that he was onboard once he did learn the strategy), however, he was making a scene at being kept in the dark (knocking chairs around the bridge) and I think that Holdo was fed up dealing with him. She might not've handled that incident the best, but it was an understandable reaction.

--- Holdo and Leia's plan is deeply questionable; we'll evacuate in the transports and not be seen in these uncloaked plainly visible ships. The pragmatic idea behind it is strong, but the method makes no sense when we can see Snoke can just turn on his telescope and look at them.
- The conflict and answer they come up with to drive Finn's plot (computer tracking us--> need a slicer--> go get wrong slicer--> slicer predictably sells you out) is ultimately both convuluted and useless, since the only plot impact is negative (Leia and Holdo's "plan" found out) and again, kind of pathetic (look out a window!)

The ships were equipped with power bafflers (the workings of which were explained in full in Cobalt Squadron) that would keep them off the First Order's sensors (basically a version of stealth technology). As I understood it, the only reason the First Order caught them was because JD sold them out. I mean, it's not like the FO would know that the transports were launched in the first place. Also, Holdo's decision to stay behind on the Raddus and keep the FO fleet's attention on her so they wouldn't accidentally find the transports seemed to be what she planned to do the whole time. (It was a gamble, but a reasonable one.)

- The actual setup for the chase is a boring retread of ESB's chase without any of the excitement, and is heavily dependent on both deeply questionable military lore decisions, the most egregious break from Star Wras always casual relationship with physics, and resolved by a move that begs the question "Why didn't you do that before?"
--- The physics thing is largely consistent with the space-as-an-ocean theme from the other movies, but becomes irritating when you realize the only way the "chase them but don't catch them" plot is of space somehow has fluid friction and acceleration has some kind distance limit.

Fair enough if you think so. As far as the space = ocean, sci-fi movies and TV have space acting like an ocean or the sky so much that I just accept that it comes with the territory.

--- The FO having nothing capable of catching up to, cutting off, or providing fighter support to catch the Resistance Fleet boggles the mind and exposes plot convenience, as well as unfortunately ignoring support ships that the comics apparently accidentally created that now can't be brought up when talking about the subplot.

Doesn't ring a bell (and I keep tabs on tie-ins). Which comic are we talking about?

- Great actors largely wasted by doubling up functional roles into redundancy: we have Rose, an engineer, journeying alongside BB-8, a droid like all the other magic door openers from before, yet neither of them can solve the problem, so we go after a red herring cameo, then recruit Benecio Del Toro who portrays a character so I'll-defined he doesn't have a name and only gets interesting because of the actor.

Rose wasn't a slicer so far as we know and BB-8 can only do so much. It was set up from the get go that they'd need outside help to get past security (like JD), so this was addressed.

Personally, I liked the subplot; I liked the characters involved and I liked that it broke the drama of the storylines with Rey, Luke, and Kylo to something that could be lighter and have more comic relief. I will concede that I liked Finn, Rose, and BB-8's part more than Poe and Holdo at the fleet, but still, how can you hate something where Threepio realizes that he's been part of something as improper as a mutiny?

[David Walton]

Rose isn't a hero, she's a romantic fool.

If the Rebellion in the OT had followed her 'don't sacrifice yourself for the greater good - we only win if we all make it' logic, Palpatine would still be ruling the galaxy.

I mean for fraks' sake, the only reason you are all ALIVE right at this moment is that Holdo blew herself up to give you a chance! Maybe somebody should have dragged her kicking and screaming off the bridge and jumped into an escape pod with her while the rest of the escaping ships were shot down.

Stupid.

In context, Finn's suicide run wasn't going to give the Resistance the edge they needed to escape.

The First Order was still going to crack the door, even if it took longer without the miniaturized Death Star tech.

Rose's point isn't that Finn would have been wrong to sacrifice himself if such an action was truly necessary, but that he was needlessly throwing his life away in a rage.