Original Sin #6 Spoilers/Discussion

[vitruvian]

I never considered Black Panther in the sense you describe, but T'Challa strikes me as the Man in the shadows who would best be suited to the Man on the Wall cloak. BP is way more tech savvy than Fury, and has been collecting alien artefacts for as long as Fury has. I wouldn't have been surprised if BP was the man behind Nick Fury, and he just needs someone to fill the spot when Fury dies. But BP has always just been Wakanda-centric his whole life. I just wonder why he would split his allegiances between Wakanda and Fury?

Well, Fury's role as the Man on the Wall has been to protect Earth from outside threats by killing them first... and guess where Wakanda is? It ain't on Mars, so this wouldn't necessarily be a split in T'Challa's allegiances at all. Any threat the Man on the Wall misses is aimed at Wakanda just as much as at the rest of the planet

[DebkoX]

Well, this is the 2nd consecutive issue which was 'Meh'. Seriously hoping its just a little blip.

[jackolover]

Well, Fury's role as the Man on the Wall has been to protect Earth from outside threats by killing them first... and guess where Wakanda is? It ain't on Mars, so this wouldn't necessarily be a split in T'Challa's allegiances at all. Any threat the Man on the Wall misses is aimed at Wakanda just as much as at the rest of the planet

And I can tell you, the Black Panther would be a hell of a lot better at it than Fury. Fury didn't even take into account the politics of the super heroes all around the Earth. If Black Panther was the Man on the Wall, I bet you he would be doing something about each individual super human, whether hero of villain. They would just start to disappear around the world, to my mind. Who needs loose canons running around everywhere, when you can just pick them off? My only proviso with that is maybe the super heroes and villains do play a role we are unaware of just yet, and having them around, whether crazy or not, has its benefits. As long as none of them happen to succeed in world domination, the super villains have their uses in keeping the super heroes well practiced in defeating threats and, on their toes all the time? But I think Black Panther would have monitored Ultrons expanding development and taken care of that, before Age of Ultron could have came around. I think Panther would have offed Kang long before now, too.

But I do wonder if Fury and BP would have different politics in the role? Fury seems to be a universalist, in that he isn't dictated by any politics on the planet. He completely closes off that part of his mind, and just concentrates on the wider threats. That he can't have missed the Incursions threat, I have no doubt, but as yet, Fury hasn't even acknowledged that this sort of threat exists. The Black Panther may have more interest in what happens with his country to be able to take over his role as Man on the Wall? But if BP could separate his politics from his role of the Man on the Wall, I could see a whole different style than what Fury brings. Since BP learnt of the Incursions and joined the Illuminati, I think he makes an ideal candidate for a Universilist now, because he has the right incentive to act, knowing what threats of this nature exist outside the confines of the Illuminatis province of super villains. BP being the "outer sweeper", covers everything that SHIELD, SWORD, AND ARMOR dredge up, but nobody knows about. It would require some sort of filtering mechanism that places these unusual threats into his province of wet works, and not let it play out in the public domain, like the Avengers. It would be interesting to get into the level of morality involved to make these decisions to terminate the threat.

[vitruvian]

And I can tell you, the Black Panther would be a hell of a lot better at it than Fury. Fury didn't even take into account the politics of the super heroes all around the Earth. If Black Panther was the Man on the Wall, I bet you he would be doing something about each individual super human, whether hero of villain. They would just start to disappear around the world, to my mind. Who needs loose canons running around everywhere, when you can just pick them off?

Why the heck would he do that? Okay, villains, perhaps, to the extent that it didn't conflict with the mission statement of defending the planet against outside threats, but heroes? If you make, say, the FF disappear, the planet gets eaten by Galactus. You make Dr. Strange disappear, and Dormammu or Nightmare conquer our dimension. Being able to do it all themselves has never been the case with either the Man on the Wall or T'Challa himself; even before the modern age of heroes, even before S.H.I.E.L.D. the chartered organization, there was the whole Shield organization going back to Galileo and DaVinci and Newton also defending the Earth, there were the previous Sorceror Supremes, there have been all kinds of other defenders.

My only proviso with that is maybe the super heroes and villains do play a role we are unaware of just yet, and having them around, whether crazy or not, has its benefits.

No, the super heroes play a role we ARE aware of. They save the world on a regular basis from stuff that got past the Man on the Wall.

As long as none of them happen to succeed in world domination, the super villains have their uses in keeping the super heroes well practiced in defeating threats and, on their toes all the time?

That's an interesting thought, but there are enough different threats out there that the extra practice probably isn't necessary. On the other hand, with many villains like Doom and Zemo and so on, whether they take over the world or not, they have a vested interest in the world continuing to exist, so they actually potentially serve as part of Earth's defense system as well. Remember, Doom was instrumental in protecting MU Earth from the Mad Celestials.

But I think Black Panther would have monitored Ultrons expanding development and taken care of that, before Age of Ultron could have came around. I think Panther would have offed Kang long before now, too.

How would BP have done that? He's been an Avenger about as long as Ultron has existed, and it's not like the Avengers haven't been trying to stop him every time he popped up. When they haven't been looking for him, it's been because they had no idea part of his programming survived anywhere, and when they have known that, I wouldn't assume they've been sitting on their thumbs rather than looking for his backups. And Age of Ultron appears to have finally happened when Ultron popped to a future era where the Avengers couldn't do anything about him further developing himself, after a sojourn in outer space where he almost took over the universe with the Phalanx... it's difficult to see how the Avengers, or BP alone, could have done much about that. And even in terms of BP being more proactive and looking into these things on his own even if the Avengers as a whole aren't on the ball - why would he need to be Fury's successor as the Man on the Wall in order to do that, when Ultron has always been as big a threat to Wakanda as to the rest of the world?

But I do wonder if Fury and BP would have different politics in the role? Fury seems to be a universalist, in that he isn't dictated by any politics on the planet. He completely closes off that part of his mind, and just concentrates on the wider threats. That he can't have missed the Incursions threat, I have no doubt, but as yet, Fury hasn't even acknowledged that this sort of threat exists. The Black Panther may have more interest in what happens with his country to be able to take over his role as Man on the Wall?

You seem to keep forgetting that Wakanda IS ON EARTH. There's no conflict between protecting one and protecting the other.

As to political infighting and conflict between people on Earth, the only time I can see this being an issue is if/when Wakanda is actually at war. At other times, while T'Challa would have to continue looking out for Wakanda's interests, that's hardly more difficult than Fury continuing to go after AIM and HYDRA as Director of SHIELD for most of his work week, only moonlighting as TMoTW on Fridays for the most part. If Fury had truly been without politics from the point of taking that role one, he hardly would have been continuing to go after Nazi-founded terrorist organizations or the Yellow Claw for most of his time.

But if BP could separate his politics from his role of the Man on the Wall, I could see a whole different style than what Fury brings. Since BP learnt of the Incursions and joined the Illuminati, I think he makes an ideal candidate for a Universilist now, because he has the right incentive to act, knowing what threats of this nature exist outside the confines of the Illuminatis province of super villains. BP being the "outer sweeper", covers everything that SHIELD, SWORD, AND ARMOR dredge up, but nobody knows about. It would require some sort of filtering mechanism that places these unusual threats into his province of wet works, and not let it play out in the public domain, like the Avengers. It would be interesting to get into the level of morality involved to make these decisions to terminate the threat.

Given the number of things that evidently got past Fury, or that he chose to let the heroes handle in their own way, it's not at all clear that his wetworks methods are actually more effective than simply looking at all threats without exception and throwing all the available resources at stopping or containing them, or that he's really been necessary.

[doctormistermaster]

So Nick Fury has gone rogue/evil and the Watcher is dead this sounds more depressing than entertaining.

[jackolover]

Why the heck would he do that? Okay, villains, perhaps, to the extent that it didn't conflict with the mission statement of defending the planet against outside threats, but heroes? If you make, say, the FF disappear, the planet gets eaten by Galactus. You make Dr. Strange disappear, and Dormammu or Nightmare conquer our dimension. Being able to do it all themselves has never been the case with either the Man on the Wall or T'Challa himself; even before the modern age of heroes, even before S.H.I.E.L.D. the chartered organization, there was the whole Shield organization going back to Galileo and DaVinci and Newton also defending the Earth, there were the previous Sorceror Supremes, there have been all kinds of other defenders.



No, the super heroes play a role we ARE aware of. They save the world on a regular basis from stuff that got past the Man on the Wall.



That's an interesting thought, but there are enough different threats out there that the extra practice probably isn't necessary. On the other hand, with many villains like Doom and Zemo and so on, whether they take over the world or not, they have a vested interest in the world continuing to exist, so they actually potentially serve as part of Earth's defense system as well. Remember, Doom was instrumental in protecting MU Earth from the Mad Celestials.



How would BP have done that? He's been an Avenger about as long as Ultron has existed, and it's not like the Avengers haven't been trying to stop him every time he popped up. When they haven't been looking for him, it's been because they had no idea part of his programming survived anywhere, and when they have known that, I wouldn't assume they've been sitting on their thumbs rather than looking for his backups. And Age of Ultron appears to have finally happened when Ultron popped to a future era where the Avengers couldn't do anything about him further developing himself, after a sojourn in outer space where he almost took over the universe with the Phalanx... it's difficult to see how the Avengers, or BP alone, could have done much about that. And even in terms of BP being more proactive and looking into these things on his own even if the Avengers as a whole aren't on the ball - why would he need to be Fury's successor as the Man on the Wall in order to do that, when Ultron has always been as big a threat to Wakanda as to the rest of the world? And yes there has been a lot of accommodation over the centuries between various agents around the world.




You seem to keep forgetting that Wakanda IS ON EARTH. There's no conflict between protecting one and protecting the other.

As to political infighting and conflict between people on Earth, the only time I can see this being an issue is if/when Wakanda is actually at war. At other times, while T'Challa would have to continue looking out for Wakanda's interests, that's hardly more difficult than Fury continuing to go after AIM and HYDRA as Director of SHIELD for most of his work week, only moonlighting as TMoTW on Fridays for the most part. If Fury had truly been without politics from the point of taking that role one, he hardly would have been continuing to go after Nazi-founded terrorist organizations or the Yellow Claw for most of his time.



Given the number of things that evidently got past Fury, or that he chose to let the heroes handle in their own way, it's not at all clear that his wetworks methods are actually more effective than simply looking at all threats without exception and throwing all the available resources at stopping or containing them, or that he's really been necessary.

Sorry about not replying to each individual bracket.

Yes, I could see Black Panther making some mistakes if he popped say the Punisher earlier on, and the whole mob situation got out of control on the ground. It makes you aware of what respect Fury has for Frank Castle, that he has him as a candidate to replace him.

I'm not sure we do know the role the super heroes play as simply as they beat the villains. That's what we generally attribute to their role, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had a greater role as in Earth X, where they are just termites keeping the seed safe. Captain Universe hinted at something when she said the Earth of this universe is the center of everything that happens. And that importance must have some preferential purpose. After all, from the comic The Defenders, because of the Continuity Engines on Earth, the super heroes on earth-616 were collected from various other Universes to be all the possible accidents that caused super heroes to appear. This is a very special planet to be set up like this.

It would be interesting if Kang could see if Black Panther does shoot him and avoids it somehow. Kang seemed to do that with Ultron, but then why didn't he see that the Avengers made Ultron lose the last time in the Heroic Age Avengers #5? Maybe Kang wanted the Avengers to give Kang a victory, because he couldn't win himself against Ultron?

As for Black Panther and Ultron. If we surmise BP was TMOTW way back in 1958 when Fury got the job, instead of BP being Wakanda centric that whole time while he was an Avenger, he would be looking out for potential threats as a matter of course. He would detect the backups of Ultron wherever they existed, because he would understand that Ultron would progress to the point Ultron would take over the Earth. As it was, BP left it to the Avengers to take care of, as with a lot of incidents that didn't concern him. But as TMOTW, BP would have had more incentive to look deeper.

And yes, BP as TMOTW probably wouldn't have conflicted with his Wakanda issues that much. But maybe BP would have dissolved the Illuminati at that first meeting, and we wouldn't have had a Secret Invasion to start with, and no Dark Reign as a result. You would have to wonder what effect that would have on the Heroic Age and Avengers World progressing?

It is a criticism of Fury that many things got past his watch. But we are not aware of why he let things get past his watch. Fury may have had ways of utilising super humans that existed at the time to do that work for him. I'm not saying he manipulated the super humans at the time, but isn't it interesting that the Watcher always shows up at critical points in the Events, and Fury and Watcher are in cahoots together?

[Stay Puft]

I'm pretty sure Fury is the assassin of The Watcher, he already had eyeball #2 before obtaining eyeball #1 from Winter Soldier...as he is gripping both oculi at the end of the issue. It seems to me that his secret space hideout sure did get awfully crowded real quick. Two more issues to go, but I'm ready for it to end next issue. Still, I love the artwork and coloring job...and the covers pop.

Anyone notice poor golden Jaws poking out of the ocean?

[jackolover]

I'm pretty sure Fury is the assassin of The Watcher, he already had eyeball #2 before obtaining eyeball #1 from Winter Soldier...as he is gripping both oculi at the end of the issue. It seems to me that his secret space hideout sure did get awfully crowded real quick. Two more issues to go, but I'm ready for it to end next issue. Still, I love the artwork and coloring job...and the covers pop.

Anyone notice poor golden Jaws poking out of the ocean?

I didn't realise Fury was the possessor of the other eye, until you pointed that out. I tend to skim over the story so quickly, my comprehension does miss some of the more significant bits of information. So there you have it. Nick Fury most likely is the shooter of Watcher case, but it just requires a plausible reason for that to happen. There has to be an endgame to all this, because Fury has mapped out where this all ends up, and that he dies because of this as well. By the end, Fury puts his replacement on the Wall, and maybe the mystery of why Uatu had to die, too, will finally be revealed. Maybe Uatu had so compromised himself with his association with Fury, Uatu couldn't live with himself anymore, and that's why he was so sad after OS #0. It could very well have been suicide, and Fury and Midas just picked off the corpse. After all, the watcher has been a constant presence on the moon this whole time, and this is the first time there won't be anyone monitoring what is going on anymore. That is a great big deal in the context of the Marvel Universe Earth. Uatu was another Man on the Wall just like Fury, because he was monitoring past and future possibilities that were going to effect Earths changes, and now this duty will not be carried out. Of course this was going to be a critical moment in time, and of course, people in the know were going to take what they could, especially Fury.

But if Onslaught/Red Skull shot the Watcher, (and who knows, maybe the Living Tribunal too), then this all is another story altogether. It then becomes a deliberate sabotage of the MU. It means the Red Skull gleaned from Xavier's brain all the secrets of the MU were held by Fury and the Watcher and the best way to distract the MU was to do what was done in the OS. It would also be why the Watcher already knew he would be next, seeing the Living Tribunal lying out on the moon. There could be so many distractions put into place. The Age of Ultron, AVX, and the Incursions could have been deliberate actions by the Red Skull, for that matter. If I was the Red Skull/Onslaught crazy pants, I would test how resilient the super heroes were with as many distractions of impossible odds, and see if they win.

And yes, I did go back to look at that scene with the Golden Jaws poking out of the water. I don't know if Marvel are just using the Midas touch, gilding all sorts of unlikely objects, just as some sort of comic relief, (like White Rabbit appearances), or whether Marvel were demonstrating the flexible concept of objects touched by Midas, are not really gold, but just the appearance of gold?