Wonder Woman 37 - SPOILERS

[Doctor Bifrost]

Seriously, I like the Zeus origin, far over the clay one, because I don't like the vibes of eugenism (the word may be too strong, but the idea is more or less that, that's what I associate with this idea of a perfect baby being born from no real parent)...

Diana was created from clay and breathed into life by a deity. This is a long-standing mythological template, going back to Pygmalion and Galatea (in Greek myth) and Adam (in the Old Testament). I'm having trouble seeing eugenics involved here - do you feel the same way about Adam?

If you want to take on eugenics in superheroes, you might take it up with the many fans of Conner Kent/Kon-El/Superboy, who was created in a lab from the genes of Superman and Lex Luthor, and has no mother to speak of. ("Conner Has Two Daddies!") (And there's the Inhumans to look at too, who for millennia were essentially ruled by geneticists, and had selective breeding programs. And Adam Warlock...) Eugenics usually has the connotation of the selection and manipulation of genes (either by careful choice of breeding partners, or direct scientific manipulation genes on the molecular level) to create offspring with desired characteristics. I don't think Diana's clay origin, which specifically involves no genes and no choice of breeding partners, really qualifies.

In fact, I think the Zeus origin comes a little closer: "If you want your character to be powerful and important, just pick the most powerful and important father that you can!"

And I wouldn't say that Diana, in the clay origin story, had "no real parent." She didn't have a biological parent (which, again, makes it not very eugenics-like), but Hippolyta was her real mother. Most adoptive parents consider themselves real parents. (Admittedly, the birth process here was a little unusual - being supernatural in nature - but that doesn't take away from Hippolyta being her mother.) I know what you meant, but I don't think it's the right word.

[NYCER]

Just speculating here but if the DCU and DCEU wanted both versions of Zeus dead, then mission accomplished.

Diana seemed depowered again and was all talk but no action when it came to defeating Darkseid. I'm getting tired of this especially in light of how Superman tossed her around in the JUSTICE LEAGUE film.

But I am SO confused about Grail here. IIRC she and her mother Myrina were of like mind to destroy Darkseid and formed an alliance with the Anti-Monitor in the process in THE DARKSEID WAR. So when/how/where did Grail turn into this version of the character James Robinson wrote? More importantly, WHY?

And Jason gets to stick around now? Is Wonder Man still an active property at Marvel or will Jason assume that wretched title?

[Dr. Poison]

I'm enjoying this story. I like that Robinson is killing off the public domain characters from Greek myth so there's less of them to overshadow Diana in her own book. I love Grail. She's so ruthless and sinister.... Jason intrigues me. I hope he becomes a superhero to add to Diana's pantheon of partners like Donna Troy. It will be interesting to see what type of costume he dons. Darkseid's new costume looks cool. I wonder what his next move will be after the story where he tries to get the Amazons to be his own personal army?

[Harpsikord]

And Jason gets to stick around now? Is Wonder Man still an active property at Marvel or will Jason assume that wretched title?

Simon is still active, but if they want Jason to be Wonder Man, he can. He just can't have a solo title or any outside merchandise... which I don't expect DC wanted to give him.

[Frontier]

Rucka's run was convoluted, ill-defined crap enough on its own. But I agree its not responsible for the problems with this run (which do exist but I believe to be exaggerated). Though I still maintain DC screwed up by not doing something with this earlier instead of waiting, and I've gone on record believing this due to trying to appease Rucka because he wouldn't use things that didn't fit his ideal, but that has little to do with this run beyond however much that run might have hurt the reception of Grail and Jason finally showing up. But what affect if any that had is impossible to gauge so at this point I have to consider it negligible.

After all this I can't say I really blame Rucka for not wanting to deal with it at all.

[Awonder]

That’s the point of him being her father right? For more story telling in her mythos. It seems none of the writers at DC truly know what to do with her old backstory so they are making something new.

Making something new? Lol. That's truly hilarious given that stories of heroes born of Zeus' divinely powerful patriarchal sperm are some of the OLDEST, and most common, in Western civilization. And this story does nothing new with it. This is not progress. This is not creative. This is men reshaping and repackaging the WW story to be more FAMILIAR and more marketable (to men) by making it very clearly more MALE.

It's not as if Diana needs Zeus as her daddy to fight Darkseid. She didn't even get a good showing in the entire seven issue story.

[Korath]

Diana was created from clay and breathed into life by a deity. This is a long-standing mythological template, going back to Pygmalion and Galatea (in Greek myth) and Adam (in the Old Testament). I'm having trouble seeing eugenics involved here - do you feel the same way about Adam?

By the way, I've always found very funny that Zeus got blamed for being all paternalistic, when the three great monotheism are far more that than the Greek myths (Eve is literally born from Adam and thus his inferior, not his equal, after all). Polytheistic religions tend to be a lot less misogynistic in nature, even if they often end evolving toward a more male centric vision (I can use Shinto as an example, which originally served as a foundation for a matriarchal society but when influences from the continent changed mentalities, men still took over... and even then, the Imperial Dynasty's legitimacy rested a long time on his supposed kinship with the Sun Goddess Amaterasu).

Concerning Kon... well, Conner, is origin always have disturbed me, not because he has two fathers, but because he is created and born in a vat, and meant to be a weapon and that's all; it's the absolute lack of love in his birth which I really dislike, and he is indeed a lot more tied to eugenicist tendencies than Diana. Plus I know that Lex is a control freak and all, but he hates Superman with a passion, so I can't see how he would accept to mix his DNA with Supe's. Kon should be based on Lena's genome, not his, if he still want to keep it in the family.

[Doctor Bifrost]

I hope [Jason] becomes a superhero to add to Diana's pantheon of partners like Donna Troy.

Oh, I would love to see Donna Troy treated as a "partner" of Diana. When Donna was first given an origin of her own (Man's World infant rescued from a fire by Diana, who took her to Paradise Island, where she was raised and essentially adopted by Hippolyta, making her Diana's "little sister"), everybody talked as though Donna/Wonder Girl was Wonder Woman's partner the way the other four original Teen Titans (Robin, Kid Flash, Speedy, Aqualad) were the partners of their JLA mentors. But we hardly ever saw that depicted in any way - for example, Wonder Girl almost never fought crime and evil alongside Wonder Woman, in Wonder Woman comics, the way Robin did with Batman, Kid Flash did with the Flash, and so on. (We did get The Wedding of Donna Troy, which I remember fondly, but it made use of relationships between Donna and Diana, and Donna and Hippolyta, that we almost never saw developed in the actual stories.)

Starting in 1986, though, with Crisis on Infinite Earths, every new origin Donna Troy got only separated her further and further from Diana - either "geographically" (she was raised on New Cronus; started her career as Wonder Girl years before Diana came to Man's World and became Wonder Woman; and who knows when they even met for the first time?), emotionally (she was created by evil Amazons to be a weapon; she's not sure if she's human, has a soul, or is even really alive; and lately Diana treats her with suspicion, contempt, and disgust), or both.

As each reboot/retcon/rebranding approaches, I find myself hoping that they'll finally fix this, and bring back the loving, sisterly relationship Donna was once presumed to have with Diana, and make them partners. (And bring back her relationship as an adoptive daughter to Hippolyta, too.)

Instead I'm reading about Jason. By the end of this arc, he already has a closer, sibling-style relationship with Diana (hugging each other, forgiving each other, mourning their lost parent - father, of course - and accepting each other as family) than Donna has had with Diana in years. Decades!

As far as Wonder Woman and her supporting cast goes, I'm way more interested in her relationships with Donna and Hippolyta than with Jason and Zeus.

As for Cassie, when she was introduced into The New 52, she had no known connection to Diana at all, and didn't even like to be called "Wonder Girl." At a very late date she was made Lennox's daughter and thus Diana's niece. But that was never developed, and was before "The Lies" and "The Truth." I don't even know if she exists in the Rebirth continuity (or, I should say, "continuity"), and if she does, what her origin is, and whether she has any link to Diana. (I don't even know if Lennox exists.)

I'd much rather see these characters (in which I've had some investment for quite a few years) developed, and these questions clarified, and see them actually made a part of Wonder Woman's family, before we spend a lot more panel time on Jason. But that's just me.

[Agent Z]

By the way, I've always found very funny that Zeus got blamed for being all paternalistic, when the three great monotheism are far more that than the Greek myths (Eve is literally born from Adam and thus his inferior, not his equal, after all). Polytheistic religions tend to be a lot less misogynistic in nature.

Greek religion seems more the exception than the norm. The treatment of women by Zeus alone makes the world of Game of Thrones seem gender equal by comparison. Zeus is blamed for being a misogynistic rapist creep because that’s what he is. And Diana being made from clay and brought to life by six gods (none of which were Zeus) is not eugenics. As Dr. Bifrost pointed out having Diana be the most noble, important and powerful of the Amazons and Olympians because of who her father is shows a far more eugenics focused view.

Concerning Kon... well, Conner, is origin always have disturbed me, not because he has two fathers, but because he is created and born in a vat, and meant to be a weapon and that's all; it's the absolute lack of love in his birth which I really dislike, and he is indeed a lot more tied to eugenicist tendencies than Diana. Plus I know that Lex is a control freak and all, but he hates Superman with a passion, so I can't see how he would accept to mix his DNA with Supe's. Kon should be based on Lena's genome, not his, if he still want to keep it in the family.

None of this would change the fact that Connor would still be created to be a weapon. It should be pointed out that Connor being based on Luthor’s genome was itself a retcon.

[Mel Dyer]

Simon is still active, but if they want Jason to be Wonder Man, he can. He just can't have a solo title or any outside merchandise... which I don't expect DC wanted to give him.

I was hoping Jason would become more of a mysterioso.

[theoneandonly]

can it be that in the same way darkseid corrupted Mary marvel he did the same with grail so that she wasnt in her right mind this entire arc?

[SiegePerilous02]

Rucka's run was convoluted, ill-defined crap enough on its own. But I agree its not responsible for the problems with this run (which do exist but I believe to be exaggerated). Though I still maintain DC screwed up by not doing something with this earlier instead of waiting, and I've gone on record believing this due to trying to appease Rucka because he wouldn't use things that didn't fit his ideal, but that has little to do with this run beyond however much that run might have hurt the reception of Grail and Jason finally showing up. But what affect if any that had is impossible to gauge so at this point I have to consider it negligible.

If they didn't want to force the story on Rucka, it was actually a good decision. Its not about fitting his ideal vision. They brought him back and gave him a lot of freedom, and tying his hands with a story he didn't want wouldn't yield good results. They also didn't sit on it too long. Serialized comics let plots simmer in the background all the time, especially in between events. Jason wasn't as important as reaffirming the positive attributes of the Amazons and firming up the events in her history.

Some would argue they didn't wait long enough. Looking at the final result, the idea should never have been floated in the first place.

[Dr. Poison]

Oh, I would love to see Donna Troy treated as a "partner" of Diana. When Donna was first given an origin of her own (Man's World infant rescued from a fire by Diana, who took her to Paradise Island, where she was raised and essentially adopted by Hippolyta, making her Diana's "little sister"), everybody talked as though Donna/Wonder Girl was Wonder Woman's partner the way the other four original Teen Titans (Robin, Kid Flash, Speedy, Aqualad) were the partners of their JLA mentors. But we hardly ever saw that depicted in any way - for example, Wonder Girl almost never fought crime and evil alongside Wonder Woman, in Wonder Woman comics, the way Robin did with Batman, Kid Flash did with the Flash, and so on. (We did get The Wedding of Donna Troy, which I remember fondly, but it made use of relationships between Donna and Diana, and Donna and Hippolyta, that we almost never saw developed in the actual stories.)

Starting in 1986, though, with Crisis on Infinite Earths, every new origin Donna Troy got only separated her further and further from Diana - either "geographically" (she was raised on New Cronus; started her career as Wonder Girl years before Diana came to Man's World and became Wonder Woman; and who knows when they even met for the first time?), emotionally (she was created by evil Amazons to be a weapon; she's not sure if she's human, has a soul, or is even really alive; and lately Diana treats her with suspicion, contempt, and disgust), or both.

As each reboot/retcon/rebranding approaches, I find myself hoping that they'll finally fix this, and bring back the loving, sisterly relationship Donna was once presumed to have with Diana, and make them partners. (And bring back her relationship as an adoptive daughter to Hippolyta, too.)

Instead I'm reading about Jason. By the end of this arc, he already has a closer, sibling-style relationship with Diana (hugging each other, forgiving each other, mourning their lost parent - father, of course - and accepting each other as family) than Donna has had with Diana in years. Decades!

As far as Wonder Woman and her supporting cast goes, I'm way more interested in her relationships with Donna and Hippolyta than with Jason and Zeus.

As for Cassie, when she was introduced into The New 52, she had no known connection to Diana at all, and didn't even like to be called "Wonder Girl." At a very late date she was made Lennox's daughter and thus Diana's niece. But that was never developed, and was before "The Lies" and "The Truth." I don't even know if she exists in the Rebirth continuity (or, I should say, "continuity"), and if she does, what her origin is, and whether she has any link to Diana. (I don't even know if Lennox exists.)

I'd much rather see these characters (in which I've had some investment for quite a few years) developed, and these questions clarified, and see them actually made a part of Wonder Woman's family, before we spend a lot more panel time on Jason. But that's just me.

Even though I like Jason, I would take Donna over him as a co-star in this book. Donna is long overdue with reconnecting with Diana so they can put that Finch created drama behind them.

[SiegePerilous02]

I really wish Rucka had written in a teenage Donna on Themyscira during Year One.

How somebody at some point didn't seize upon that as a perfect opportunity to fix Donna once and for all is beyond me. Either Rucka wanted to and he was prevented for whatever reason, he didn't want to and DC didn't force him, or it didn't occur to anybody involved. Despite the fact that New 52 Donna was one of the biggest messes the Lies should have cleaned up after the Amazons.

[WonderScott]

Just speculating here but if the DCU and DCEU wanted both versions of Zeus dead, then mission accomplished.

Diana seemed depowered again and was all talk but no action when it came to defeating Darkseid. I'm getting tired of this especially in light of how Superman tossed her around in the JUSTICE LEAGUE film.

But I am SO confused about Grail here. IIRC she and her mother Myrina were of like mind to destroy Darkseid and formed an alliance with the Anti-Monitor in the process in THE DARKSEID WAR. So when/how/where did Grail turn into this version of the character James Robinson wrote? More importantly, WHY?

And Jason gets to stick around now? Is Wonder Man still an active property at Marvel or will Jason assume that wretched title?

I'm with you on the plot and motivation issue for Grail. Why she would want to raise Darkseid after the whole point of Darkseid War was for her to destroy him makes no sense to me.

She's gone from being a major player as a New (demi)God to being another disgruntled scion of Darkseid alongside siblings Orion, Kalibak, and Grayven.