Irredeemable Characters?

[lurkerforyears]

Magneto hasn't done anything very evil since the 90s (thanks to the Xorneto retcon)
It seems Marvel was so scared by Xorn-Magneto making Magneto 100% evil, that they have decided to never make him evil again.

The worst thing he has done this millenium imo is amputating the legs and arms of Scalphunter, cauterizing the wounds, so he would be crippled forever (Scalphunter was born in the 1800s and has a very powerful healing factor, even if he has been cloned a few times, he cauterized the wounds to make sure his arms and legs wont grow again)
Scalphunter had reformed after Messiah Complex, and helped the X-Men against Predator X and Bastion. It seemed unfair to me.
I also don't think fans hate Magneto. I think Sabretooth and Emma get far more hate.

[jmc247]

Then her son got possessed and we have seen neither since.

Iceman possessed by Poccy seed texted Nurse Annie unwittingly in Astonishing years later. Iceman carried off Nurse Annie and Lorna into a cave who woke up together leading Lorna to quite the PTSD stare.

[Silver Fang]

With Creed, in addition to not liking the inversion mechanic, we've seen a lot more of the skeletons in Creed's closet, and that knowing that much more about the kind of person he was makes his heel-turn that much less palatable to people. Also, I see that you've read Mary Shelley Overdrive. Nice..

Overdrive, imo, was the best Creed story. He was still a villainous *******. But he had depth to him. Plus he was shown as intelligent, rather than being flanderized into an unthinking animal -like Greg Hack has done. Jolley needs to come back & co-write a Creed book with Ed Brisson. lol

Who considers Magneto irredeemable? I'd wager he not only has been on the side of good or moral ambiguity than bad but he has some actual valid points.

I usually see the Mag-haters gather in Rogue or Gambit threads -what with him being a mass murderer & genocidal supremacist. And his name being brought up by a few different posters for evil characters that were allowed to be X-Men. Emma's thread had his & Sabretooth's names dropped a good few times.So it got me thinking those 3 were all the question marks for "Do they deserve forgiveness / to be heroes after the evil they did commit."

[Dum Dum Dugan]

When did Boomer say Magneto was worse than Creed?

[Silver Fang]

When did Boomer say Magneto was worse than Creed?

I get the books mixed up. I think it was X-Force. When she'd been visiting Creed in the danger room after his lobotomy from Logan. Everyone gathers together to tell her she's in over her head -even Xavier. Everyone saying Creed is evil and she needs to keep away from him. Boomer is adamant about giving second chances -otherwise, what are they there for. And then she says no matter what evil Creed has done, he can't be worse than Magneto who has been given 3, 4, and 5 chances.

That can be taken 2 ways. She didn't outright say Creed was better. But far as she's concerned, they were equal at best, if not Magneto slightly edging.

[Gortam]

There´s a few:

1 ) Daken: i don´t remember when he started playing nice. But what he did in Wolverine´s book was pratty irredimable. And he was a badass on his own. I feel even that "manipulation" by Creed as out of place. He always seamed to me a more smart, driven and even better character than Creed. He felt dangerous and that´s something almost no villain can achive in any book. And now acting as an Anti-hero it feels totally off comparing what he did in his frist years. He seems out of character now.

2 ) Bishop after Messiha Complex: i believe he is a destroyed character. No way of bringing him back, and writters are trying lately. What he did is "off the charts"... it doesn´t matter if "he thought it would be erased if he corrected the timeline". It was just too much. He turned genocidal and intensly cruel on a world scale. I don´t believe any villain in any X-Men book achived his level of evilness. He surpassed even the futures ruled by Apocalypse. If you have in you to do that....

3 ) SADLY Emma Frost: shooting the starships full of Inhumans... Inhuman Genocide. How i hate Soule. Emma Frost always bordered evil, but even in her worst years as the White Queen... she never commited mass murder. There´s no coming back. No way any X-men can work or relate to her after she did that. Cyclops could never love a woman who killed a lot of people, even woman and children. She is one of my favorite characters. Soule I hate you, i have to say it again.

4 ) Xorn concept: the Xorn idea was amazing. Great character. I believe Morrison was on drugs by the end of his run. His books became weird and difficult to read. I loved his first arcs, as a fan of Jean i believe he managed her really well. I liked the Emma-Cyclops-Jean affair. But as he aproached "Planet X" his books became strange. He killed Xorn too fast, turning him into hitler-Magneto. The character was in development. It would have been a permanent X-Men otherwise. Now this idea of the Xorn brothers... it doesn´t feel right. It tastes poor.

[Tycon]

Magneto hasn't done anything very evil since the 90s (thanks to the Xorneto retcon)
It seems Marvel was so scared by Xorn-Magneto making Magneto 100% evil, that they have decided to never make him evil again.

The worst thing he has done this millenium imo is amputating the legs and arms of Scalphunter, cauterizing the wounds, so he would be crippled forever (Scalphunter was born in the 1800s and has a very powerful healing factor, even if he has been cloned a few times, he cauterized the wounds to make sure his arms and legs wont grow again)
Scalphunter had reformed after Messiah Complex, and helped the X-Men against Predator X and Bastion. It seemed unfair to me.
I also don't think fans hate Magneto. I think Sabretooth and Emma get far more hate.

I'd say Fatal Attractions beats that out. He sent out an electromagnetic pulse that cut off most power on Earth. So that could've led to fatal car accidents and entire hospitals shutting down.

Yeah, I've VERY rarely seen Magneto treated by fans as irredeemable. At least those who do are a pretty damn small minority.

Yeah. Even the movies have Erik as the most sympathetic character in the whole franchise.

I usually see the Mag-haters gather in Rogue or Gambit threads -what with him being a mass murderer & genocidal supremacist. And his name being brought up by a few different posters for evil characters that were allowed to be X-Men. Emma's thread had his & Sabretooth's names dropped a good few times.So it got me thinking those 3 were all the question marks for "Do they deserve forgiveness / to be heroes after the evil they did commit."

Genocidal? Where??? Supremacist----well not if you consider the societal power a human has over a mutant. And he's a mass murderer, just like Psylocke and Archangel and Bishop and Domino and Cable and Jean Grey and Scarlet Witch and Logan and

[Dum Dum Dugan]

SADLY Emma Frost: shooting the starships full of Inhumans... Inhuman Genocide. How i hate Soule. Emma Frost always bordered evil, but even in her worst years as the White Queen... she never commited mass murder. There´s no coming back. No way any X-men can work or relate to her after she did that. Cyclops could never love a woman who killed a lot of people, even woman and children. She is one of my favorite characters. Soule I hate you, i have to say it again.

Not to sidetrack the topic, but we don't even know who was in the dirigible, or how many. And I doubt there were children there, since Ahura was using them to attack the mutants. Emma's done worse, as have others who have been given second chances by the x-men.

[nx01a]

3 ) SADLY Emma Frost: shooting the starships full of Inhumans... Inhuman Genocide. How i hate Soule. Emma Frost always bordered evil, but even in her worst years as the White Queen... she never commited mass murder. There´s no coming back. No way any X-men can work or relate to her after she did that. Cyclops could never love a woman who killed a lot of people, even woman and children. She is one of my favorite characters. Soule I hate you, i have to say it again.

Jean killed a whole civilization and then blew up a Shi'ar spaceship... and Cyclops still loves her. Magneto committed worldwide mass murder in X-Men v2 #25 without the benefit of a Xorneto retcon... and he's come back from that quite nicely.

[lurkerforyears]

I'd say Fatal Attractions beats that out. He sent out an electromagnetic pulse that cut off most power on Earth. So that could've led to fatal car accidents and entire hospitals shutting down.



Yeah. Even the movies have Erik as the most sympathetic character in the whole franchise.



Genocidal? Where??? Supremacist----well not if you consider the societal power a human has over a mutant. And he's a mass murderer, just like Psylocke and Archangel and Bishop and Domino and Cable and Jean Grey and Scarlet Witch and Logan and

yes, but fatal attractions was in the 90s, I meant worst thing Magneto has done from the 2000s on
he must have killed well over a millions people then if you count all the people flying in airplanes all over the world, + all the people getting surgeries in hospitals, or people with pacemakers

[lurkerforyears]

Not to sidetrack the topic, but we don't even know who was in the dirigible, or how many. And I doubt there were children there, since Ahura was using them to attack the mutants. Emma's done worse, as have others who have been given second chances by the x-men.

I agree on Emma not commiting genocide against inhumans. She destroyed 3 zeppelins, if they were similar to world war zeppelins, that would be around 40 to 60 people. they had small crews. not that it wasnt terrible. And it was especially terrible because it was nonsensical violence, mental breakdown stuff, didnt even qualify as terrorism with some objective.

[CuteClops]

The Avengers are worse than Magneto, Daken and Creed.
Especially Tony Stark, Carol Danvers, Captain America, Thor and Scarlet Witch.

The same about...
Beast
Namor
Medusa
Black Bolt
and
Charles Xavier

Emma is not a villain.

[Havok83]

Mystique and Scarlet Witch

[JasonEsta]

You have characters like Magneto & Sabretooth who are pronounced as irredeemable and many fans hate or can't buy them as anti-heroes. You got Emma, who had an entire thread on her. She was in the middle with mixed reviews.

You got characters like Daken & Deadpool that aren't any better than the former three, but have easily been accepted as anti-heroes by many. They both love killing, have a sadistic streak, and regret none of their past sins. Xavier had sympathy for Magneto and said he understood his actions. On the flip, Boomer said Magneto was worse than Creed.

So, why are characters like Deadpool & Daken ok. But Emma, Sabretooth, and Magneto are so controversial? Sadly, this will be tough because Marvel is so inconsistent. So all these characters have polar opposite characterizations & numerous stories for anyone's argument.

I don't know about Sabretooth but Magneto is one of the most beloved characters in comic history. He topped every list of villains(Wizard, erc) throughout the 90s..he's so charismatic a villain on the tv shows that he always ends up as a tweener instead of a hero or villain because his goal is just. Last 3 movies..He was sympathetic and the theaters responded to his scenes more then anyone else in the movies.

How can Magneto be "irredeemable " when he is the DIRECT reason Rogue and Kitty are alive today? Or when he rescued Lorna and Rachel when the X men forgot about them? How about when he saved Storm in X Men Unlimited after she got shot and struggled to keep that car full of teenagers from falling off the bridge?

Sabretooth doesn't do these things unless he's mind controlled.

Emma? She's always in a position of remote ease and likes the good life. Magneto is a whole another level of complexity..which is why he's iconic and sells books and they don't.

[JasonEsta]

This was my argument. It was a small discussion on reddit. But I consider Daken to be just as evil and disgusting as Creed. ONLY thing Creed has over him is seniority. Creed is 40 years old, and had a 3 year inversion-break in that time. So we saw more of his evil than Daken & Deadpool. But even with that, seems clear both are equally as bad as he is. If they can change, damn near anyone can.

And you have people gushing over Daken & Laura. But when Sabretooth gets the same, people wanna vomit. He seemed to be developing a romance or good friendship with Monet. But needless to say 98% of fans reading, acted like it was the most horrible thing in the world that he cared for her and that she might have a soft spot for him.



I can see why some are turned-off with it, due to the magic tampering aspect. But Angel was the same way in Buffy. He got his shot at redemption by magically being given a soul again. So he tried to redeem himself after 200 years of being a sadistic monster. If Sabretooth had been allowed to get a proper redemption arc, and rode with being a hero for a few years, I think it could've been good. But since AXIS, he's only had small guest roles in books. The two books where he was starring & gonna have writers really work with him got axed -Avengers + Uncanny. Then he ended up with Rosenberg & Pak, who just villainized him again. Redemption doesn't happen over-night. But some characters have stayed in a bad place for 15+ years because writers don't let them go froward long and develop. And the second they do, it's all undone by another writer.

Then people are willing to accept the Freudian Excuses for Daken, but Creed has them too. Both can be considered psychologically messed up due to abuse. But for some reason, it only counts on Daken. But on Creed, it's a cop-out. And even Creed has shown some mercy, love, and genuine concern for others while he was evil.

Deadpool & Daken got what Creed hasn't had in years. Respect. Daniel Way was the low point of Deadpool. But both got numerous years to build their anti-hero legacy. Meanwhile, Creed got started on a good note, then fell off again because most writers seem to only value him as something to make Logan look good. So he's written as a joke & caricature 98% of the time.


She seems the most mixed. With fans equally divided on her. She definitely doesn't get the hate Sabretooth & Magneto get. lol But Marvel may be the same on her. They want her to be the villain and foil, probably even more so with Jean coming back. But fans are wanting her to stay an anti-hero. She's another character who's falling off with little respect, it seems.


Not to mention Deadpool constantly screws everyone over. He's been given numerous chances to be a hero, and he always ends up sided with villains and causing trouble. Only to be forgiven after a short time in the doghouse. His own editor and writer -White & Duggan have stated he's a bad person who mostly thinks of himself. And reading the comics, you can clearly see that. How selfish & one-sided Wade actually is.

The thing with Monet and Sabretooth is why? Monet is so conceited aand bratty..She wouldn't be attracted to Sabretooth..especially with her knowing what he did to Psylocke in Uncanny 328...she's way too noble and into herself to want to be sexual with a monster. This isn't Venom. Sabretooth has went way too far and didn't give a damn who knew about it. I'm not quite sure who Monet would be attracted to when she's written her best...a pretty boy, a genius, a mutant, Silver Surfer..who knows. But it damn sure wouldn't be Victor Creed.