Irredeemable Characters?

[jmc247]

I'd say Fatal Attractions beats that out. He sent out an electromagnetic pulse that cut off most power on Earth. So that could've led to fatal car accidents and entire hospitals shutting down.

Xavier said in issue after that hundreds may have died, unless the character could somehow restrain the effects the reality of a global EMP would shut off global power and transportation and kill hundreds of millions to billions as whole regions of the world as in the power plants, every car, truck and boat would be slagged leading to global chaos and famine.

The only way the scene works with anything like our universes science is he was restraining the effects massively otherwise there would have been global chaos which is the problem guesstimating casualties from something.

[Silver Fang]

The thing with Monet and Sabretooth is why? Monet is so conceited aand bratty..She wouldn't be attracted to Sabretooth..especially with her knowing what he did to Psylocke in Uncanny 328...she's way too noble and into herself to want to be sexual with a monster. This isn't Venom. Sabretooth has went way too far and didn't give a damn who knew about it. I'm not quite sure who Monet would be attracted to when she's written her best...a pretty boy, a genius, a mutant, Silver Surfer..who knows. But it damn sure wouldn't be Victor Creed.

Who says what's too far? If Mystique, Daken, Logan, and Deadpool had women who loved or were attracted to them, I don't see why Sabretooth couldn't. Anyone could probably do better than these guys. But they were still wanted.

Monet had a thing for Strong Guy and slept with Darwin. So her standards are not super high. lol And Hell she didn't even like Darwin. I think she just wanted sex for a chance to feel something. So you got her sleeping with a dude casually that she wasn't even into. In Uncanny, we weren't dealing with evil Sabretooth. It was anti-hero Creed. And he was very noble when Monet was with him. He did nothing but try to watch out for her. Monet & Creed was the Buffy & Angel of Uncanny. Isn't Buffy a bit into herself and prissy like Monet? She's a vampire slayer. Angel is a vampire and former murderer & rapist of 200+ years as Angelus.

Plus, that added more drama. It seemed Monet was attracted to him -the Creed she got to know. But she definitely ran hot and cold on him. And I think part of that could have been annoyance or anger because she knows / feels that she shouldn't be interested in him. It wouldn't have been a happy relationship with no issues. There'd have been plenty of room for drama and problems. Hence why it works for fiction lol

There's no more reason Sabretooth & Monet should be off the table than

Deadpool + Rogue
Buffy + Angel
Buffy + Spike -who tried to rape her
Deadpool + Siryn
Batman & Catwoman lol

Monet & Creed share a similar snarkiness, and cynical view of life. Their back & forth seems to show fondness for the banter. Again, Monet liked Strong Guy. So she may very well be into macho guys. It's not unheard of for a rich brat to be attracted to bad boys. Honestly, it's almost a cliche in fiction. Monet acts like a perfect priss, but she is very flawed and has a good few problems. I never saw her as so pure and noble to the point that Sabretooth attracting her would be impossible. But again, Good Sabretooth. Not the psycho one.

But like someone mentioned in another thread. Monet thinks everyone is beneath her. So what's the losers from the keepers. And if she dated someone that's the male equivalent of her, she'd probably be competitive with them so as not to feel weak, or overshadowed.

[Knives]

I think it's safe to say there's no such thing as Irredeemable Characters.

Even though some have destroyed a planet like Namor or hundreds of lives like Magneto, Emma, Bishop or Creed everyone can be heroes, villains or anti-heroes if it is the will of the marvel or writers.

Of course, convincing readers is quite another story as some have said is needed an elaborate plan that makes sense or is built with time for readers to accept or at least understand.

The case of Magneto, Emma, Deadpool are easier to accept because they have a tragic past or reasons that readers understand or sympathize with. They have a history of redemptive attempts, moments in which they have saved lives, personal failures and are extremely cool.

Daken has the benefit of being a new character few people know all his past among the readers. Creed on the other hand is more complicated he is bad to the bones and have a long past of carnage but is change is due to a spell that failed.

Namor destroyed a planet to save two dimensions.

Wanda, Jean or Cyclops were possessed or mad.

Bishop may be the most complicated case he was not crazy maybe obsessed would say but he committed a terrible act and there was no reprimand from the X-mens regarding him.


Of course if we think about it the X-men should never work with people like Mystique or Creed but be it in comics or in real life nothing is so simple or black and white.

[PhoenixStudies]

Jean Grey for killing the D'Bari.

Rachel Summers for being a Hound and hunting fellow mutants for the slaughter.

Bishop for trying to kill Hope as a young child and committing nuclear genocide in a possible future universe.

Archangel for nuking an entire town.

Iceman for freezing an entire city.

Cyclops for being a fascist and terrorist.

Beast for multiple crimes against humanity.

[JasonEsta]

Who says what's too far? If Mystique, Daken, Logan, and Deadpool had women who loved or were attracted to them, I don't see why Sabretooth couldn't.

Monet had a thing for Strong Guy and slept with Darwin. So her standards are not super high. lol And Hell she didn't even like Darwin. I think she just wanted sex for a chance to feel something. So you got her sleeping with a dude casually that she wasn't even into. In Uncanny, we weren't dealing with evil Sabretooth. It was anti-hero Creed. And he was very noble when Monet was with him. He did nothing but try to watch out for her. Monet & Creed was the Buffy & Angel of Uncanny. Isn't Buffy a bit into herself and prissy like Monet? Angel is a vampire and former murderer & rapist of 200+ years.

Plus, that added more drama. It seemed clear Monet was attracted to him -the Creed she got to know. But she definitely ran hot and cold on him. And I think part of that could have been annoyance or anger because she knows / feels that she shouldn't be interested in him for a number of reasons.

There's no more reason Sabretooth & Monet should be off the table than

Deadpool + Rogue
Buffy + Angel
Buffy + Spike -who tried to rape her
Deadpool + Siryn
Batman & Catwoman lol

Monet & Creed share a similar snarkiness, and cynical view of life. Their back & forth seems to show fondness for the banter. Again, Monet liked Strong Guy. So she may very well be into macho guys. It's not unheard of for a rich brat to be attracted to bad boys. Honestly, it's almost a cliche. Monet acts like a perfect priss, but she is very flawed and has a good few problems. I never saw her as pure and noble to the point that Sabretooth attracting her would be impossible. But again, Good Sabretooth. Not the psycho one.

But like someone mentioned in another thread. Monet thinks everyone is beneath her. So what's the losers from the keepers. And if she dated someone that's the male equivalent of her, she'd probably be competitive with them so as not to feel weak, or overshadowed.

It's too far because Monet is usually super noble..Logan and Deadpool get white washed all the time. Mystique is trusted by no one. Monet WOULD NEVER be with Sabretooth in her right mind. She would brag about doing what he could in 1/4 of the time...make fun of him for being not on her level. That's about it for their banter.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Though wasn't it not Warren that blew up the town but the Archangel persona or whatever...

[lurkerforyears]

this looks terrible, but Aurora and Wild Child were working for the Weapon X program. Sabretooth was killing mutants the program wanted to recruit, to prevent the program from recruiting them. He gave Weapon X false information about a teleporter living there, Weapon X sent Aurora and Wild Child to recruit the teleporter, and they were surprised by Sabretooth.

[Silver Fang]

It's too far because Monet is usually super noble..Logan and Deadpool get white washed all the time. Mystique is trusted by no one. Monet WOULD NEVER be with Sabretooth in her right mind. She would brag about doing what he could in 1/4 of the time...make fun of him for being not on her level. That's about it for their banter.

The same Monet who was worried about her shirt getting ruined when a mutant exploded from T-mist poisoning? Destiny loved Mystique. And it can be argued she could've done better. But she didn't. She loved her.

So again, I am not seeing an issue with Sabretooth & Monet. Again, some of the guys she's been with weren't winners. And who says she wants a guy completely on her level? She may prefer to be the more magnificent one in relationships. Even with Synch, she may have felt that way -even if he was WONDERFUL, she still may have thought she was just a bit better. lol Or you can flip it and say Synch was too good for her, and he could get an attractive woman that wasn't a brat and self-centered. lol

So again, I still don't see the problem. Other than people who like Monet & hate Sabretooth. Which is fine. I like Sabretooth & hate Mystique, which is one reason I hate the pairing. Naturally if you hate a character, you don't want them with favorites. So I don't blame you if you're a fan of Monet, or at least like her more than Creed.

But far as that ship goes, I never saw issues with it. But it's moot now because it was erased with Uncanny. So lucky for the haters of that ship it didn't last long. I liked it, but I know that's a minority opinion. lol

[Celestialbodies]

Anything is possible when written to be. The only thing that doesn't make sense is the fact that these changes cannot occur overnight. Marvel has a bad habit of using microwave change. Characters just simply behave out of character and it's chalked up to being "continuity -lite" or off panel discussion. Any character can go any direction, but for the readers to embrace and accept it, it has to be done naturally and logically with the right amount of motivation. AKA long form story telling. A practice Marvel seems to be moving away from because they believe readers are so warpped by social media that we have low attention spans. The part about social media effecting attention spans my be true, but thats more a generational issue. Though they seem to want to ignore this fact, I find it to true more often than not; most serious comic book readers are well over 25 years of age if not just flat-out middle aged. People are reading less and less these days, the only ones that appear to still be reading are the same ones that were reading two decades ago. I think we can handle some character development.

I feel like that has more to do with the nature of comics moreso than readers attention spans everything is so decompressed nothing happens for multiple issues. It conditions your audience to tune out of the comics their reading until something huge actually occurs...or another event which are what Marvel now uses to move narratives forward.

Magneto hasn't done anything very evil since the 90s (thanks to the Xorneto retcon)
It seems Marvel was so scared by Xorn-Magneto making Magneto 100% evil, that they have decided to never make him evil again.

The worst thing he has done this millenium imo is amputating the legs and arms of Scalphunter, cauterizing the wounds, so he would be crippled forever (Scalphunter was born in the 1800s and has a very powerful healing factor, even if he has been cloned a few times, he cauterized the wounds to make sure his arms and legs wont grow again)
Scalphunter had reformed after Messiah Complex, and helped the X-Men against Predator X and Bastion. It seemed unfair to me.
I also don't think fans hate Magneto. I think Sabretooth and Emma get far more hate.

There was that whole kidnapping and crucifying Xavier thing right before Morrison's NXM, oddly enough though it's always ignored...

There´s a few:

1 ) Daken: i don´t remember when he started playing nice. But what he did in Wolverine´s book was pratty irredimable. And he was a badass on his own. I feel even that "manipulation" by Creed as out of place. He always seamed to me a more smart, driven and even better character than Creed. He felt dangerous and that´s something almost no villain can achive in any book. And now acting as an Anti-hero it feels totally off comparing what he did in his frist years. He seems out of character now.

2 ) Bishop after Messiha Complex: i believe he is a destroyed character. No way of bringing him back, and writters are trying lately. What he did is "off the charts"... it doesn´t matter if "he thought it would be erased if he corrected the timeline". It was just too much. He turned genocidal and intensly cruel on a world scale. I don´t believe any villain in any X-Men book achived his level of evilness. He surpassed even the futures ruled by Apocalypse. If you have in you to do that....

3 ) SADLY Emma Frost: shooting the starships full of Inhumans... Inhuman Genocide. How i hate Soule. Emma Frost always bordered evil, but even in her worst years as the White Queen... she never commited mass murder. There´s no coming back. No way any X-men can work or relate to her after she did that. Cyclops could never love a woman who killed a lot of people, even woman and children. She is one of my favorite characters. Soule I hate you, i have to say it again.

4 ) Xorn concept: the Xorn idea was amazing. Great character. I believe Morrison was on drugs by the end of his run. His books became weird and difficult to read. I loved his first arcs, as a fan of Jean i believe he managed her really well. I liked the Emma-Cyclops-Jean affair. But as he aproached "Planet X" his books became strange. He killed Xorn too fast, turning him into hitler-Magneto. The character was in development. It would have been a permanent X-Men otherwise. Now this idea of the Xorn brothers... it doesn´t feel right. It tastes poor.

At this point I think it's fair to say that EVERYTHING Bishop did during and after Messiah Complex be ignored. It was a radical and drastic change in the character supported by nothing before hand, and done simply to give Hope a villain. But in the end as with EVERYTHING associated with Hope after AvX, it was all casually dropped and rarely mentioned again. I vote we all do the same.

Jean killed a whole civilization and then blew up a Shi'ar spaceship... and Cyclops still loves her. Magneto committed worldwide mass murder in X-Men v2 #25 without the benefit of a Xorneto retcon... and he's come back from that quite nicely.

This is true what's often left out is Jean went on trial, died, and then stayed out of publication for like six years. I think it's fair to say no one even to this day magically forgave her, not that most readers ever mention that point....

[AbnormallyNormal]

It ultimately is subjective. Different books meant for different audiences with different writers will answer this differently.

I just think finding Emma "a bridge too far" is laughable personally though. At that point you really might as well throw characters like Rogue under the proverbial moral bus as well.

A big part of the confusion is also how the maturity of society and comic readership in general has gone up over the decades. So what might have been acceptable as Pure Good vs Pure Evil in the 60s (Under the Comic Code Authority, during the 40s - early 50s the situation was a lot more freewheeling) by the 80s and 90s and 00's writers have felt a need to "problematize" or "complexify".

Magneto is an excellent case in point for this. Went from a total bad guy in the 60s to much more sympathetic noble by the 80s, and then due to regression in writing talent, back to a pure baddy in the 90s, then finally they figured out he's a LOT More interesting as a tortured in-betweener.

[Havok83]

It's too far because Monet is usually super noble..Logan and Deadpool get white washed all the time. Mystique is trusted by no one. Monet WOULD NEVER be with Sabretooth in her right mind. She would brag about doing what he could in 1/4 of the time...make fun of him for being not on her level. That's about it for their banter.

Monet is a flawed character. When she was going downhill Creed was the only one that was there for her. I think Monet of today after she's healed herself of Emplate would be more willing to give him a chance. Bunn wrote them beautifully and its a shame that development was cut short

This is true what's often left out is Jean went on trial, died, and then stayed out of publication for like six years. I think it's fair to say no one even to this day magically forgave her, not that most readers ever mention that point....

And as of a few years ago she was STILL paying for it. The Sh'iar slaughtered her entire family and then put the teen on trial for crimes committed during the DPS.

[JasonEsta]

The same Monet who was worried about her shirt getting ruined when a mutant exploded from T-mist poisoning? Destiny loved Mystique. And it can be argued she could've done better. But she didn't. She loved her.

So again, I am not seeing an issue with Sabretooth & Monet. Again, some of the guys she's been with weren't winners. And who says she wants a guy completely on her level? She may prefer to be the more magnificent one in relationships. Even with Synch, she may have felt that way -even if he was WONDERFUL, she still may have thought she was just a bit better. lol

So again, I still don't see the problem. Other than people who like Monet & hate Sabretooth. Which is fine. I like Sabretooth & hate Mystique, which is one reason I hate the pairing. Naturally if you hate a character, you don't want them with favorites. So I don't blame you if you're a fan of Monet, or at least like her more than Creed.

But far as that ship goes, I never saw issues with it. But it's moot now because it was erased with Uncanny. So lucky for the haters of that ship it didn't last long. I liked it, but I know that's a minority opinion. lol

She was such a goody two shoes conceited character..it just didn't add up. The one storyline from Bunn I didn't buy. If she had been influenced by Emplate first, then it would be cool. Strong Guy and Darwin arent child killers. There's just no way she would be drawn to him unless they did a big 180 on her character.

[Havok83]

She was such a goody two shoes conceited character..it just didn't add up. The one storyline from Bunn I didn't buy. If she had been influenced by Emplate first, then it would be cool. Strong Guy and Darwin arent child killers. There's just no way she would be drawn to him unless they did a big 180 on her character.

She killed Morlocks, Inhumans and has gone after the children in Gen X. Her character has already changed for the darker. Sabretooth himself has done a 180 in that he's been portrayed as a hero in recent years. Monet didnt know him when he was a villian. The bulk of her interaction with him has been since he was inverted. Not saying that his past is irrelevant but its not the man that she came to know. She judged him based on who he is today and considering what she's been up to, I see her less inclined to be hypocritical to cast stones

[JasonEsta]

She killed Morlocks, Inhumans and has gone after the children in Gen X. Her character has already changed for the darker. Sabretooth himself has done a 180 in that he's been portrayed as a hero in recent years. Monet didnt know him when he was a villian. The bulk of her interaction with him has been since he was inverted. Not saying that his past is irrelevant but its not the man that she came to know. She judged him based on who he is today and considering what she's been up to, I see her less inclined to be hypocritical to cast stones

She didn't do it for the thrill of it like Creed. He's an apologetic serial killer.

If she brought up stuff, I don't see How it would be hypocritical. She's not a legitimate liar or phony.

[Silver Fang]

She killed Morlocks, Inhumans and has gone after the children in Gen X. Her character has already changed for the darker. Sabretooth himself has done a 180 in that he's been portrayed as a hero in recent years. Monet didnt know him when he was a villian. The bulk of her interaction with him has been since he was inverted. Not saying that his past is irrelevant but its not the man that she came to know. She judged him based on who he is today and considering what she's been up to, I see her less inclined to be hypocritical to cast stones

Agreed. Monet was under Emplate's influence, so it's not completely her fault. But she may still accept what she did because far as she's concerned, she may feel she allowed Emplate to gain that kind of power over her -possibly thinking if she'd been stronger, it wouldn't have happened.

Strong Guy dammed himself to Hell to save her. Similarly, Sabretooth allowed himself to become a daily food source for her. Even after he found out it was weakening him. Don't get more apparent with these 2 what they were willing to do for her. Now Creed enabled her and arguably made things worse. But he was trying to watch out for her. And seemed to care more about her than anything else. Inverted, he changed and does the right thing because it's right. But it seems Monet is the only person he was personally interested in helping, rather than just out of duty or repentance.

Monet has definitely taken a darker tone. She's working with the Hellfire club, and even Psylocke said Sabretooth was the most trustworthy person on the team given the secrets of Magneto & Monet.

Sabretooth is being written as a villain again by Pak. But Brisson is still doing him as an anti-hero. So hopefully he & Monet will interact again at some point and their relationship could develop more. But that's a big hope. Depends on if Sabretooth isn't reset by every writer, and if the relationship hasn't been erased from existence with Bunn's loss of the characters. I worry that's the case since it hasn't come up at all in 8 months, since ResurrXion started.