Irredeemable Characters?

[Silver Fang]

Strong Guy and Darwin aren't serial killers and rapists.

And neither was Creed in Uncanny. He didn't kill or rape anyone there. According to Bunn, he was the most heroic member on the team, and the moral conscious of it. Creed's worst moments in Uncanny came from covering for Monet, who was killing Inhumans. Not to mention him being a rapist is speculation. I heard many say he is, but I heard others dispute that he's not. Who has he raped? It wasn't Silver Fox, because that was a memory implant. He killed her after she became a Hydra agent.

Even if Creed has been a rapist, so has Mystique and possibly Daken. Mystique had Destiny, and loved Rogue & Kurt. Daken has a bond with Laura, fans shipping him with dudes, and it not being taken so hard when he appears to be flirting with a girl in ANW. Copycat has technically raped Deadpool, but fans still like them together. and hated Creed killing her. Also, Mystique & Daken usually have sex as emotional manipulation. I think it was even stated by Daken's creator that he's asexual, and mainly uses it as a weapon -but that he's not aromantic. These guys are cool, yet somehow, relationships are beyond Creed. lol



Seems there's a bit of a divide on Magneto. To a much lesser extent, it seems like Emma & Creed, his bad deeds outweigh or cancel out the good for some. But it is seeming like he's one of the better ones over Emma & Creed for fans.

Honestly, like someone said, depending on writing, anyone can be reformed in fiction. Hell Orochimaru in Naruto was. And that guy was a huge sicko. Along with other mass murderers like Obito and Nagato. But unlike Orochimaru, those 2 died for their redemption. Orochimaru is still on the lose and making experiments.

[Agent Z]

If that really was Magneto I would agree, but Marvel bent over backwards to sweep that whole thing under the carpet and I agree with that decision(they really shouldn't have let Morrison do that in the first place). I loved Xorn before the reveal and then when we saw it was Magneto and then what he did next, I mean, yeah, you couldn't really redeem such a character except to say that it wasn't him!

Setting off an EMP wasn't Xorn and the guy has a whole list of other unforgivable actions on his conscience.

[Agent Z]

In your head? Sure but he's saved mutants Asses while the X men were playing hide and seek in their little mansion afraid to reveal their identity and location.

Courage>>>>

And Magneto is not seeking redemption...just in case you missed the ENTIRE Magneto series.

He's also endangered and taken away mutant lives.

So if he's not seeking redemption why see him as redeemable? By his own admission his crimes are unforgivable.

[Agent Z]

And neither was Creed in Uncanny. He didn't kill or rape anyone there.

Just because he didn’t murder or rape anyone in one story doesn’t mean he was never a murderer and a rapist.

According to Bunn, he was the most heroic member on the team, and the moral conscious of it.

To quote Galvatron, “this is bad comedy”.

Who has he raped? It wasn't Silver Fox, because that was a memory implant. He killed her after she became a Hydra agent.

NSFW. Trigger warning for graphic depictions of gore and sexual violence.
http://maxximoffed.tumblr.com/post/1...y-but-a-rapist
As you can see, Creed’s quite the bastard to women. Especially ones close to Logan.

Even if Creed has been a rapist, so has Mystique and possibly Daken.

Yeah and the fandom’s whitewashing of those characters is equally repulsive.

Honestly, like someone said, depending on writing, anyone can be reformed in fiction. Hell Orochimaru in Naruto was. And that guy was a huge sicko. Along with other mass murderers like Obito and Nagato. But unlike Orochimaru, those 2 died for their redemption. Orochimaru is still on the lose and making experiments.

Gaara’s redemption arc was the only competently executed one in that series. I've said before that Naruto can be counted on to screw two things; female characters and redemption arcs.

[DurararaFTW]

And neither was Creed in Uncanny. He didn't kill or rape anyone there. According to Bunn, he was the most heroic member on the team, and the moral conscious of it. Creed's worst moments in Uncanny came from covering for Monet, who was killing Inhumans. Not to mention him being a rapist is speculation. I heard many say he is, but I heard others dispute that he's not. Who has he raped? It wasn't Silver Fox, because that was a memory implant. He killed her after she became a Hydra agent.

Even if Creed has been a rapist, so has Mystique and possibly Daken. Mystique had Destiny, and loved Rogue & Kurt. Daken has a bond with Laura, fans shipping him with dudes, and it not being taken so hard when he appears to be flirting with a girl in ANW. Copycat has technically raped Deadpool, but fans still like them together. and hated Creed killing her. Also, Mystique & Daken usually have sex as emotional manipulation. I think it was even stated by Daken's creator that he's asexual, and mainly uses it as a weapon -but that he's not aromantic. These guys are cool, yet somehow, relationships are beyond Creed. lol



Seems there's a bit of a divide on Magneto. To a much lesser extent, it seems like Emma & Creed, his bad deeds outweigh or cancel out the good for some. But it is seeming like he's one of the better ones over Emma & Creed for fans.

Honestly, like someone said, depending on writing, anyone can be reformed in fiction. Hell Orochimaru in Naruto was. And that guy was a huge sicko. Along with other mass murderers like Obito and Nagato. But unlike Orochimaru, those 2 died for their redemption. Orochimaru is still on the lose and making experiments.

Two wrongs do not make a right. People shouln't overlook Daken or Copycat's crimes, doesn't mean that having done so they should also overlook everything anyone else has ever done or ever will.

Supremacist----well not if you consider the societal power a human has over a mutant.

Yes, rehardless of the current status quo, Magneto is not fighting for equality. He coined the phrase "homo sapiens superior" for a reason. I can understand overlooking stuff like Eve of Destruction or Fatal Attraction as outliers but I'd say that at least is pretty vital to his character.

[Tycon]

Daken has a bond with Laura, fans shipping him with dudes, and it not being taken so hard when he appears to be flirting with a girl in ANW. Copycat has technically raped Deadpool, but fans still like them together. and hated Creed killing her. Also, Mystique & Daken usually have sex as emotional manipulation. I think it was even stated by Daken's creator that he's asexual

HUGE misconceptions about Daken's character. First, he sure as hell isn't asexual. Second, he's bisexual.

[Ambaryerno]

HUGE misconceptions about Daken's character. First, he sure as hell isn't asexual. Second, he's bisexual.

Well, it's hard to say exactly what Daken's actual intentions towards Megan in #28 were, since Laura was savvy enough to put a stop to it before it went anywhere.

[lurkerforyears]

If that really was Magneto I would agree, but Marvel bent over backwards to sweep that whole thing under the carpet and I agree with that decision(they really shouldn't have let Morrison do that in the first place). I loved Xorn before the reveal and then when we saw it was Magneto and then what he did next, I mean, yeah, you couldn't really redeem such a character except to say that it wasn't him!

the global EMP was the real Magneto in the 90s, iirc the same story arc in which he removed the adamantium from Wolverine, and Xavier mindwiped Magneto

I really dislike many things that happened in the 90s. I almost feel like writers were very disrespectful of the Claremont run that just had ended. Claremont wouldnt have made a shitty villain like Fitzroy kill all the Hellions, or make Magneto again a genocidal villain.

[Vegan Daddy]

the global EMP was the real Magneto in the 90s, iirc the same story arc in which he removed the adamantium from Wolverine, and Xavier mindwiped Magneto

I really dislike many things that happened in the 90s. I almost feel like writers were very disrespectful of the Claremont run that just had ended. Claremont wouldnt have made a shitty villain like Fitzroy kill all the Hellions, or make Magneto again a genocidal villain.

OR try to redeem a psychopathic bimbo like Emma Frost.

[yogaflame]

Setting off an EMP wasn't Xorn and the guy has a whole list of other unforgivable actions on his conscience.

I agree his 90's villainy is reprehensible. But then, so was the writing of the 90's, compared to what Claremont was doing with the character through the 80's. Taken as a whole, I don't think Magneto should be an X-Man, along with Emma, Mystique, Creed. They might have mutual goals momentarily that allow for cooperation, but the idea that heroes would actually trust them, would celebrate them as comrades in arms is troubling. Honestly, if you factor in all the various ridiculous stories that have been told since Claremont's time, Charles, Hank, Bobby, Scott, Logan, Betsy, Bishop, and Monet all have horrible acts in their histories that have yet to be answered for sufficiently (I'm sure there are even more I am over-looking).

As I wrote about in the 'should Emma be forgiven' thread a few weeks ago, moral relativity is a plague upon almost all forms of media and storytelling in modern times. I realize things aren't always as easy as good/evil/black/white all the time, but the intentional degradation of positive icons, and the adoration of psychopaths, is a destructive tendency and has made it so that people have lost sight of how anyone should act in the world. And trust, I am all about freedom of expression, but the classical saying went: do as thou wilt, but harm thee none. Now it just seems like its 'do as thou wilt, that shall be the whole of the law'. As we can see by the madness manifest in the world, such messages are not actually helpful for humanity.

[lurkerforyears]

OR try to redeem a psychopathic bimbo like Emma Frost.

That is right. But you never know with Claremont. Not that long ago he wrote a New Mutants story in which Selene is pretty much a sexy hero fighting the Red Skull to save her grand daughter Amara.



And his Emma of the New Mutants wasnt nearly as bad as what happened to her recently in IvX, especially from that story in which Magneto saves the NM with Emma's help after they had been traumatized by the Beyonder.
IIRC he wanted to make the Hellions join the New Mutants eventually, becoming one team, that is why he had set up clues of future romances between Hellions and New Mutant characters. I dont know what his plans for Emma would have been then.

[Omegarogue]

You have characters like Magneto & Sabretooth who are pronounced as irredeemable and many fans hate or can't buy them as anti-heroes. You got Emma, who had an entire thread on her. She was in the middle with mixed reviews.

You got characters like Daken & Deadpool that aren't any better than the former three, but have easily been accepted as anti-heroes by many. They both love killing, have a sadistic streak, and regret none of their past sins. Xavier had sympathy for Magneto and said he understood his actions. On the flip, Boomer said Magneto was worse than Creed.

So, why are characters like Deadpool & Daken ok. But Emma, Sabretooth, and Magneto are so controversial? Sadly, this will be tough because Marvel is so inconsistent. So all these characters have polar opposite characterizations & numerous stories for anyone's argument.

Everyone can some kind of redemption less Magneto.
He is literally a Nazi, and worse, he is a dictator and a mass murderer.

[Gortam]

Jean killed a whole civilization and then blew up a Shi'ar spaceship... and Cyclops still loves her. Magneto committed worldwide mass murder in X-Men v2 #25 without the benefit of a Xorneto retcon... and he's come back from that quite nicely.

But in that case there was the Phoenix involved. And what happened oposes everything Jean stands for, which is part of the tragedy. What Emma did... did on her own right.

[Gortam]

At this point I think it's fair to say that EVERYTHING Bishop did during and after Messiah Complex be ignored. It was a radical and drastic change in the character supported by nothing before hand, and done simply to give Hope a villain. But in the end as with EVERYTHING associated with Hope after AvX, it was all casually dropped and rarely mentioned again. I vote we all do the same.

It was out of character yes. It´s a shame what happened to such a good character. But what he did it´s too big to let it pass. Sadly.

[Gortam]

yeah that's true



yyyyyyyyyyyyeahhhhhhhhhh noshedidn't.

that is barely genocide. Ahura barely seems fazed in Secret Warriors, there obviously weren't a lot of Inhumans in those zeppelins. also, half the X-Men have committed mass murder of some sort.



what????????

did you read PAD's penultimate X-Factor arc?

I... would like to agree. I love Emma. The zeppelin crap should be adresses or dismissed or something. Such a bad move for the character.

In some way Marvel wants to forget it. By the end of IvsX we see Emma dressed in black and ready to be a full villain. But in her recent appearences (even the jean book) she seams like the real Emma is back. Luckly.