Jody Garland, Thor-Ul, Dispenser of Truth, Rikdad et al.: Barbatos Question?

[Clairaudient Freedom Soldier]

Greetings compeers,

I hope you and your loved ones are having a marvelous winter holiday! After reading Dark Nights: Metal #4, the following three questions struck me:

1) Has Barbatos the dragon always been around (e.g., before Crisis on Infinite Earths) or was he added to the multiverse with the events of Final Crisis and the New 52 revision?

2) If the local multiverse and other multiverses are relatively stable islands on the roiling chaotic ocean of the dark multiverse, what are the higher realms, such as New Genesis, Apokolips, Heaven, and Dream? Are they islands too or the equivalent of skies above the islands?

3) What is the link between the dark multiverse and earth-14, which seems to be dividing like a cell?



Thank you for sharing your thoughts and speculation. Have a successful and salubrious New Year!

[BohemiaDrinker]

Greetings compeers,

I hope you and your loved ones are having a marvelous winter holiday! After reading Dark Nights: Metal #4, the following three questions struck me:

1) Has Barbatos the dragon always been around (e.g., before Crisis on Infinite Earths) or was he added to the multiverse with the events of Final Crisis and the New 52 revision?

That one is tricky. Let's keep in mind that every reboot/re-organizing/etc in the DCU changes everything from the beginning of time. That being the case, if you believe that the current Multiverse was created by Alex Luthor in Infinite Crisis, it's a new adition. If you believe that it's the same multiverse as always, before COIE and all, then it's always been there.

Now, I'm going to brake #2 in 2 parts:

2) If the local multiverse and other multiverses are relatively stable islands on the roiling chaotic ocean of the dark multiverse,

I don't think that that's exactly the case; it's more like the dark multivverse being a place of creative force that, when properly realized, gets infused into the proper multiverse. Say you have a big bowl of melted chocolate, a really demanding chef and a helper. The chef takes some chocolate and tries to sculpt it into an artsy little sweet, but he only gets one out of 10 right. The ones he gets right go into a box, the ones he doesn't are thrown in the trash by his helper. The chef is the forger, the helper is Barbatos, the big bowl of chocolaaate is the dark multiverse and the box is the multverse proper.

what are the higher realms, such as New Genesis, Apokolips, Heaven, and Dream? Are they islands too or the equivalent of skies above the islands?

More like the skies. The higher realms are sort of an ideaspace, that assumes different forms depending on context. Not quite physical.

3) What is the link between the dark multiverse and earth-14, which seems to be dividing like a cell?

Among those of us inclined to discuss such things, 14 is thought to be the perfect, archetypical Earth. It can't be written, or it ceases to be "perfect". However, in an interview a long time ago, Rian Hughes, the designer who illustrated the map, called attention to 14's divisive aspect, and the fact that it was the only Earth crossed by both axis, saying that maybe that's where "new" Earths entered the multiverse. So there's some food for thought.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and speculation. Have a successful and salubrious New Year!

A successful and salubrious New Year for you as well! o/

[Clairaudient Freedom Soldier]

That one is tricky. Let's keep in mind that every reboot/re-organizing/etc in the DCU changes everything from the beginning of time. That being the case, if you believe that the current Multiverse was created by Alex Luthor in Infinite Crisis, it's a new adition. If you believe that it's the same multiverse as always, before COIE and all, then it's always been there.

Now, I'm going to brake #2 in 2 parts:



I don't think that that's exactly the case; it's more like the dark multivverse being a place of creative force that, when properly realized, gets infused into the proper multiverse. Say you have a big bowl of melted chocolate, a really demanding chef and a helper. The chef takes some chocolate and tries to sculpt it into an artsy little sweet, but he only gets one out of 10 right. The ones he gets right go into a box, the ones he doesn't are thrown in the trash by his helper. The chef is the forger, the helper is Barbatos, the big bowl of chocolaaate is the dark multiverse and the box is the multverse proper.



More like the skies. The higher realms are sort of an ideaspace, that assumes different forms depending on context. Not quite physical.



Among those of us inclined to discuss such things, 14 is thought to be the perfect, archetypical Earth. It can't be written, or it ceases to be "perfect". However, in an interview a long time ago, Rian Hughes, the designer who illustrated the map, called attention to 14's divisive aspect, and the fact that it was the only Earth crossed by both axis, saying that maybe that's where "new" Earths entered the multiverse. So there's some food for thought.



A successful and salubrious New Year for you as well! o/

Thank you! I enjoyed your detailed responses, especially the idea of the dark multiverse as a bowl of chocolate, yummy !! Hmmm, is the Forger weaker than a Monitor?

[Jody Garland]

[QUOTE=Clairaudient Freedom Soldier;3343543]Greetings compeers,

I hope you and your loved ones are having a marvelous winter holiday! After reading Dark Nights: Metal #4, the following three questions struck me]/quote]
Yup, I'm having a lovely holiday season! I hope you are as well!

1) Has Barbatos the dragon always been around (e.g., before Crisis on Infinite Earths) or was he added to the multiverse with the events of Final Crisis and the New 52 revision?

I think, ultimately, this is a bit wrongheaded. It's impossible to tell due to the nature of the resets. Unless a writer wants to come around later and say Barbatos was around Pre-Crisis, we can't really speculate, especially since the nature of the Multiverse has been retconned so many times. Granted, the reference to the Orrery does hint he was around during the 52 era Multiverse, at least.

2) If the local multiverse and other multiverses are relatively stable islands on the roiling chaotic ocean of the dark multiverse, what are the higher realms, such as New Genesis, Apokolips, Heaven, and Dream? Are they islands too or the equivalent of skies above the islands?

They are the sky. I'm thinking it might be intentional on Morrison's part, actually, given the links between the concept of 'sky' and spheres in languages and mythologies, cf. 'celestial sphere'.

3) What is the link between the dark multiverse and earth-14, which seems to be dividing like a cell?

Dunno, maybe.It appears to be the origin point of the mulitverse, so maybe its where the Foundry is located. It's position would give some impact to the idea of the Dark Multiverse worlds being cast into an abyss and whatnot.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and speculation. Have a successful and salubrious New Year!

You as well!

[Clairaudient Freedom Soldier]

[QUOTE=Jody Garland;3344542]

Greetings compeers,

I hope you and your loved ones are having a marvelous winter holiday! After reading Dark Nights: Metal #4, the following three questions struck me]/quote]
Yup, I'm having a lovely holiday season! I hope you are as well!


I think, ultimately, this is a bit wrongheaded. It's impossible to tell due to the nature of the resets. Unless a writer wants to come around later and say Barbatos was around Pre-Crisis, we can't really speculate, especially since the nature of the Multiverse has been retconned so many times. Granted, the reference to the Orrery does hint he was around during the 52 era Multiverse, at least.


They are the sky. I'm thinking it might be intentional on Morrison's part, actually, given the links between the concept of 'sky' and spheres in languages and mythologies, cf. 'celestial sphere'.




Dunno, maybe.It appears to be the origin point of the mulitverse, so maybe its where the Foundry is located. It's position would give some impact to the idea of the Dark Multiverse worlds being cast into an abyss and whatnot.



You as well!

Thank you, Jody! I like the idea of earth-14 being the foundry. Awesome responses as usual!

[Thor-Ul]

Greetings compeers,

I hope you and your loved ones are having a marvelous winter holiday! After reading Dark Nights: Metal #4, the following three questions struck me:

1) Has Barbatos the dragon always been around (e.g., before Crisis on Infinite Earths) or was he added to the multiverse with the events of Final Crisis and the New 52 revision?

That depends how you consider things. As was exposed in Metal, Barbatos always has ben there along with the Monitor and Antimonitor, just as the Forger, but we just now know about it. But as everything in comics they are characters from recently date.

2) If the local multiverse and other multiverses are relatively stable islands on the roiling chaotic ocean of the dark multiverse, what are the higher realms, such as New Genesis, Apokolips, Heaven, and Dream? Are they islands too or the equivalent of skies above the islands?

Higher places, it if difficult to define those places as "places" when those concepts are not Places properly but more like abstract concepts. In the case of the Fourth world however could be considered as an extradimensional universe, from "where" theknow charactersareprojections of the real concepts.

3) What is the link between the dark multiverse and earth-14, which seems to be dividing like a cell?

I would say there is no relation to the forge of worlds or the dark multiverse properly. As I understand the Dark Multiverse, the stable earths can arise from the dark to the multiverse and occupy anvibrational frecuency, from the dark (one side of the map) to the light (the side of the map properly).The dividing cell I associated to the fact than earth 14 is opposed to the Bizarro Universe, a twisted duplicate of earth 0, but as Bizarro himself, it is the perfect imperfect duplicate. So Earth 14 should be somekind of duplicate earth but from another characteristics.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and speculation. Have a successful and salubrious New Year!

Happy new 2018 for you too. And to everybody else too.

[Clairaudient Freedom Soldier]

That depends how you consider things. As was exposed in Metal, Barbatos always has ben there along with the Monitor and Antimonitor, just as the Forger, but we just now know about it. But as everything in comics they are characters from recently date.



Higher places, it if difficult to define those places as "places" when those concepts are not Places properly but more like abstract concepts. In the case of the Fourth world however could be considered as an extradimensional universe, from "where" theknow charactersareprojections of the real concepts.



I would say there is no relation to the forge of worlds or the dark multiverse properly. As I understand the Dark Multiverse, the stable earths can arise from the dark to the multiverse and occupy anvibrational frecuency, from the dark (one side of the map) to the light (the side of the map properly).The dividing cell I associated to the fact than earth 14 is opposed to the Bizarro Universe, a twisted duplicate of earth 0, but as Bizarro himself, it is the perfect imperfect duplicate. So Earth 14 should be somekind of duplicate earth but from another characteristics.


Happy new 2018 for you too. And to everybody else too.

Thank you, Thor-Ul! So many great ideas, earth-14 is the perfect and abstract duplicate that we can never touch or read about ...