How sympathetic do you find Dark Knight Returns Superman?

[Thor-Ul]

The Superman from DKR i a Superman who has renouced to many things for th greatest good. It was necessary as a representation of the status quo which Batman opposed.

[jimmy]

Those are some great stories he got to experience and pass on. I think you'd like the Joe and Max movie, which was basically made for tv but a rare case of a movie not falling into trying to make things sensational and showing Louis vs schmeling for what it was through honest accounts. They even reenacted the actual punches thrown in some scenes.

Cinderella Man didn't heavily feature Schmeling, since that fight didn't happen. Ron Howard went Hollywood and made Max Baer a pretty rough stereotype of a boxer, but they didn't forget to give him the star of David trunks at least. Schmeling wasn't Jewish, but I don't remember either man depicted as a Nazi. The unfortunate thing back then was that most people took those things for granted. Like although Baer was horrified by the death of Campbell, the killer thing was played up in the press.



Jealousy was once his joke, in an Outer Places link to an interview. Otherwise he was pretty honest when Comicbook interviewed him about DKIII:

Yes indeed fortunately i have my father on reel tape talking about those fights have not listen to them in a long time but, I need to watch this (Joe and Max) especially, in light of their friendship after the war a Max was Pallbearer and actually paid for Joe's funeral expense, and Cinderella Man.

I know a lot of people praise Cassius Clay as the greatest and he was very successful also robbed of nearly 4 years of his prime being strip of his title, because of his beliefs on the War, and being a Conscientious objector! But for me, and anyone over 70, LOL, it will always be Joe Louis!

Here is little known fact off the top head (with out check my tape) Two Ton just before a Louis they fought said "I have a dog named Joe Louis" Louis response; "I'll make you eat that up in ring" but again later, the two became friends and Tony actually help out Joe with some financial problems. That is the respect Louis earned from his -one time- oppositions.


Thanks for the Miller articles - i have to read more on this gue - I too grew up with those Fleischer animations.

[JBatmanFan05]

I'd have to say Superman ended up being a good guy who was
put in a really awful rock vs hard place situation, and he--being a pretty good guy--picked the option that
would let him continue to save people even without making a big show of it.

Pretty good summation of how sympathetic I felt DKR Superman was. Very, given the circumstances.

The Dark Knight Returns is probably one the most discussed and most misunderstood stories out there.

It really is. I once posted:

It was an alternate take on the characters. And frankly (pun intended?), Miller spinning Superman that way was a stroke of utter creative genius (and no doubt would have been done by a later writer had Miller not done so). Like Secret Empire storyline in 1974 with Nixon, Miller, like so many politically minded young writers, found a compelling way to simplify and symbolize high political and geopolitical stakes with Batman and Superman.

Miller was just trying to tell a (alternate dystopic future) story. And it worked fantastically. Some have to look at the story apart from the pro-Superman stance, the unpredictable uncontrollable effects it had on Superman. Same with Batman fans and Frank Miller.

It's always sad for me to read fans blaming all these things on Miller and Moore (as if they could control what the industry took from their work as far as influence and the degree and longevity of the influence) when they were the epitome of what you want and wanted writers to be: creative and fresh and smart storytellers

[Stanlos]

Do you think he deserved the beatdown he received from Batman and Green Arrow? Let's not forget, he did work for a corrupt governmen and cost Oliver his arm. Not to mention, trying to shut down Batman after all the good he did in cleaning up Gotham and geting the mutants under control.

Thoughts?

I know Frank Miller is an 80s legend for DC but I am going to be honest and say you can miss me with his Dark Knight and Dark Knight Returns business. It is so sad to me that these seminal Batman stories all hinge on dissing and completely misrepresenting Superman. Nope.

[jimmy]

I know Frank Miller is an 80s legend for DC but I am going to be honest and say you can miss me with his Dark Knight and Dark Knight Returns business. It is so sad to me that these seminal Batman stories all hinge on dissing and completely misrepresenting Superman. Nope.

Very Hard to Watch - There are some writers / publisher that really don't know, nor properly utilize Superman as they are too busy in trying to make other characters look good all at the expense of Superman. The character of Superman should never be so dumb down to the point where this happens. Superman should be written as an extremely intelligent, wise and experienced individual with unbelievable capabilities not to be used as a puppet for someone else's own plans and schemes - Political or Otherwise.

[Steven Ely]

Well, Superman in the Frank Miler Batman thing is not the focus of the story. It's a Batman story. Superman isn't explored very much in it. It's almost completely seen from Batman's point of view, and Batman is completely at odds with Superman in the story, Batman sees Superman as a self-righteous Goody-Two Shoes soliciting for the government, and Superman is also completely at odds with Batman, Superman sees Batman as an 'ol grumpy brutal vigilante - legally a criminal, a figure of vengeance returning to his war on crime, his oath to avenge his parents blah, blah, blah. Superman is only sympathetic in the very end where he's [spoilers] protective of Batman, "Don't touch him" and when he is at the [faked] funeral of Bruce Wayne and is mournful thinking that Wayne's dead but then he hears Bruce Wayne's heartbeat start up again and gives the classic George Reeves style Clark Kent wink [I think that is the best part of him in the story].

[JBatmanFan05]

not to be used as a puppet for someone else's own plans and schemes - Political or Otherwise.

Taken to the extreme that goes against creative freedom in fiction. Not to mention of course importantly that DKR was not main canon, but an alternate dystopic future story. If Miller wanted instead to do righteous rebel Superman vs govt loyalist Batman, he absolutely should have had that freedom (if not encouragement). All sorts of (often non-main-canon) alternate past/future or alternate universe, etc stories portray Batman, Superman, etc as evil or very different or etc.

[daBronzeBomma]

Taken to the extreme that goes against creative freedom in fiction. Not to mention of course importantly that DKR was not main canon, but an alternate dystopic future story.

Main Canon matters not. Since 1986, and then 1994, then 2006, then 2011, and then 2016, all the requirement for legitimacy is Any Canon, as in "Did the company now known as DC Comics publish it?" THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and INJUSTICE, both of which pit an unsympathetic Superman against a righteous Batman are far more well-known to the masses than random main canon encounter #33 since the last reboot.

If Miller wanted instead to do righteous rebel Superman vs govt loyalist Batman, he absolutely should have had that freedom (if not encouragement).

I'd pay good money to read this.

All sorts of (often non-main-canon) alternate past/future or alternate universe, etc stories portray Batman, Superman, etc as evil or very different or etc.

ALL sorts? Now I'm curious: Besides perhaps METAL, which I'm still unclear on the concept (trade-wait), When has Bruce Wayne ever been the clear-cut antagonist / bad guy in any story, alt-universe or otherwise?

When has he not gotten the last word, the final insult in his favor, all the plot-armor? At least when dealing with characters beyond his own Batverse?

Is there a list of go-to Evil Batman stories where someone else takes HIM down at the end?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Is there a list of go-to Evil Batman stories where someone else takes HIM down at the end?

Metal is very much an evil Batmen vs the DCU story. Each tie-in issue is essentially an origin story for a different evil Batman. And, it seems, the evil Batmen will be sticking around after Metal is concluded, too. So, we'll be able to enjoy plenty of evil Batmen getting the snot kicked out of them by various DC heroes for at least another couple years until readers get sick of them.

[Rod G]

Metal is very much an evil Batmen vs the DCU story. Each tie-in issue is essentially an origin story for a different evil Batman. And, it seems, the evil Batmen will be sticking around after Metal is concluded, too. So, we'll be able to enjoy plenty of evil Batmen getting the snot kicked out of them by various DC heroes for at least another couple years until readers get sick of them.

It’s the “Evil Batmen” who are doing the snot-kicking, unfortunately.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It’s the “Evil Batmen” who are doing the snot-kicking, unfortunately.

Patience, grasshopper.

[Rod G]

Patience, grasshopper.

How droll, ant.

[Jon Clark]

Patience, grasshopper.

Odds are that at the end the multiverse is saved by Batman defeating the other Batmen, though. Metal would be great if it actually showed even some of those Evil Batmen being outright defeated without any help from "our" Bruce

How often are Evil Supermen taken down by good Supermen compared with the times Evil Supermen are defeated by "a Batman"?

[Carabas]

Patience, grasshopper.

Oh, I'm sure the real Batman and his crew of rooftop vigilantes will be around to kick the snot out of them.

[AquaLantern]

Odds are that at the end the multiverse is saved by Batman defeating the other Batmen, though. Metal would be great if it actually showed even some of those Evil Batmen being outright defeated without any help from "our" Bruce

How often are Evil Supermen taken down by good Supermen compared with the times Evil Supermen are defeated by "a Batman"?

I am dreading that moment. It's why I only read Dark Days Forge and The Casting. Also does it really count as evil Batman when they're using other heroes powers? I feel like it's a cheat by having a Flash, Green Lantern, etc and slap the Bat symbol on them and boom it's totally evil Batman now!