A Better explanation for the creation and use of the Clone Army

[abulafia]

seriously?
the whole clone order agenda makes as much sense as something written by a bunch of monkeys looked in a room with plenty if beer.

"i darth sidious, will order these clones under my guise as sy blibio! no it has to sound more like my real title. so my mockery is even more elaborated! i sarth didious have fooled you jedi scum. nawh, that is too obvious.
beetreepio! what sounds remotely like darth sidious? psychodiaz? yes, yes indeed. write it down into the sith archives! oh, and watch the spelling."

in which universe does darth sidious sounds remotely like syfo dias? and picking aliases that sound similar to your real identity... brilliant idea!

[Carabas]

seriously?
the whole clone order agenda makes as much sense as something written by a bunch of monkeys looked in a room with plenty if beer.

"i darth sidious, will order these clones under my guise as sy blibio! no it has to sound more like my real title. so my mockery is even more elaborated! i sarth didious have fooled you jedi scum. nawh, that is too obvious.
beetreepio! what sounds remotely like darth sidious? psychodiaz? yes, yes indeed. write it down into the sith archives! oh, and watch the spelling."

in which universe does darth sidious sounds remotely like syfo dias? and picking aliases that sound similar to your real identity... brilliant idea!

His real identity is Sheev Palpatine. Nobody knows there even is guy calling himself Darth Sidious.

And Sifo-Dyas was a person that existed with genuine Jedi Master credentials.

[SuperiorIronman]

Yeah, but doesn't Obi-Wan respond with a comment about how Master Syfo-Dyas died years ago? If the guy was a Jedi Master important enough for Obi-Wan to recognize by name shouldn't the Jedi notice how similar Chancellor Palpatine looks like him?

The problem here is that Sifo-Dyas was killed ten years ago and the clones are ten years old now. As far as the Jedi know, Sifo-Dyas acted on his own to create the army within the year of his death, at an unknown point in time because nobody even knows about Darth Sidious yet. We know the Sith are responsible, the Jedi don't know that yet. The Jedi don't realize anything is up until the clones are given executive orders to kill them.
As for anyone recognizing Palpatine, that's actually explained in the scene in Dex's Diner.

Kamino is beyond the outer-rim so it's not only not within the Republic but Kamanoians keep to themselves. Not only will they be totally willing to do a job if you have good enough manners and a big enough pocketbook, but you don't have to worry about them saying anything. Kamino is also not widely known so not many people are going to be going looking for it, and because of this if it happened to have been deleted from the Jedi Archives they wouldn't really notice the difference.

On the note of it being deleted, Obi-Wan is looking at a statue of Dooku when he is in the archives and later when he speaks to Yoda he remarks only a Jedi could delete those files. We later find out Dooku is the villain of the movie (AOTC) and he has a history with the template for the clones and would've left the order fitting in with the creation of the clones. Evidence seems to point more to Dooku than Palpatine and so Kaminoians would be more suspect of Dooku than any other. And if anything comes of that we know in The Clone Wars that some Kaminoians are in on the plot which further protects Palpatine from being found out early.

Edit- I don't remember if Sifo-Dyas is literally responsible for the clones or not but if he is and the Sith picked it up later than there is little else for the Sith to worry about. Palpatine will order more anyways and Dooku strong arms those with him and hides from the rest.

[WebLurker]

The Clone Wars show filled in the blanks. Long story short, Sifo-Dyas had a hazy vision of the future and believed that the Republic needed an army. Kicked off the Jedi Council because of his radical views, he secretly placed the order for the Clone Army. The Sith learned about it and arranged for his death (shortly before TMP) so they could use the army in their own scheme to trigger the Clone Wars and take control. (The fact that Dooku was the one who recruited Jango Fett and was working with the higher-level cloners on the project suggests that the Sith took control pretty early on.)

[Vegeta]

The problem here is that Sifo-Dyas was killed ten years ago and the clones are ten years old now. As far as the Jedi know, Sifo-Dyas acted on his own to create the army within the year of his death, at an unknown point in time because nobody even knows about Darth Sidious yet. We know the Sith are responsible, the Jedi don't know that yet. The Jedi don't realize anything is up until the clones are given executive orders to kill them.
As for anyone recognizing Palpatine, that's actually explained in the scene in Dex's Diner.

Kamino is beyond the outer-rim so it's not only not within the Republic but Kamanoians keep to themselves. Not only will they be totally willing to do a job if you have good enough manners and a big enough pocketbook, but you don't have to worry about them saying anything. Kamino is also not widely known so not many people are going to be going looking for it, and because of this if it happened to have been deleted from the Jedi Archives they wouldn't really notice the difference.

On the note of it being deleted, Obi-Wan is looking at a statue of Dooku when he is in the archives and later when he speaks to Yoda he remarks only a Jedi could delete those files. We later find out Dooku is the villain of the movie (AOTC) and he has a history with the template for the clones and would've left the order fitting in with the creation of the clones. Evidence seems to point more to Dooku than Palpatine and so Kaminoians would be more suspect of Dooku than any other. And if anything comes of that we know in The Clone Wars that some Kaminoians are in on the plot which further protects Palpatine from being found out early.

Edit- I don't remember if Sifo-Dyas is literally responsible for the clones or not but if he is and the Sith picked it up later than there is little else for the Sith to worry about. Palpatine will order more anyways and Dooku strong arms those with him and hides from the rest.

I don't see how this explains why the Jedi Council wouldn't recognize a fellow Jedi master when he is elected Chancellor. Particularly since Obi-Wan knew the guy before he had even obtained the rank. Yoda should recognize the guy as Syfo-Dias when he was standing in the Chancellor's office at the start of AOTC.

[SuperiorIronman]

I don't see how this explains why the Jedi Council wouldn't recognize a fellow Jedi master when he is elected Chancellor. Particularly since Obi-Wan knew the guy before he had even obtained the rank. Yoda should recognize the guy as Syfo-Dias when he was standing in the Chancellor's office at the start of AOTC.

Sheev isn’t a Jedi master and around the time when the clones would’ve been created he was a senator from Naboo. The only thing the Jedi would recognize him from would be the Naboo crisis.

[Vegeta]

Sheev isn’t a Jedi master and around the time when the clones would’ve been created he was a senator from Naboo. The only thing the Jedi would recognize him from would be the Naboo crisis.

But MASTER Syfo-Dias was a Jedi master when the clones were created. If Palpatine was the same guy, they would have recognized him regardless. "Hey, the Senator from Naboo looks exactly like Syfo! What's up with that?"

I'm not why my comment seems to be so confusing for you. The Jedi don't know what Darth Sideous looks like, but they should be able to recognize a fellow Jedi Master, as it is the council that approves of these things.

So Palpatine and Syfo-Dias logically cannot be the same person.

[ChrisIII]

One thing I've never quite gotten about Sidious's plan; in AOTC Dooku says that the Trade Federation felt 'betrayed' by Sidious, yet in ROTS Nute doesn't seem to mind taking orders from him (which of course sets him up for a final betrayal).


Regarding Sifo-Dyas, I think that in most versions of the story he intended for the Clones to be used for good; but he let Dooku in on it when they were both in the order; who told Palpatine, and they twisted his plans.

Or Dooku suggested the idea to Sifo-Dyas....

[WebLurker]

One thing I've never quite gotten about Sidious's plan; in AOTC Dooku says that the Trade Federation felt 'betrayed' by Sidious, yet in ROTS Nute doesn't seem to mind taking orders from him (which of course sets him up for a final betrayal).

It's possible that Dooku was lying about it. The Legends novel Labyrinth of Evil says that the Federation went to Dooku and didn't realize that he was working for Sidious until it was too late to back out, but it's unclear if that still applies to canon.

[Carabas]

One thing I've never quite gotten about Sidious's plan; in AOTC Dooku says that the Trade Federation felt 'betrayed' by Sidious, yet in ROTS Nute doesn't seem to mind taking orders from him (which of course sets him up for a final betrayal).


Regarding Sifo-Dyas, I think that in most versions of the story he intended for the Clones to be used for good; but he let Dooku in on it when they were both in the order; who told Palpatine, and they twisted his plans.

Or Dooku suggested the idea to Sifo-Dyas....

There's really only three ways this works on any level.

Syfo was secretly in league with the Sith.
Syfo was a dumbass who was completely manipulated by the Sith.
Syfo was pushing up daisies and impersonated by the Sith.

[SuperiorIronman]

But MASTER Syfo-Dias was a Jedi master when the clones were created. If Palpatine was the same guy, they would have recognized him regardless. "Hey, the Senator from Naboo looks exactly like Syfo! What's up with that?"

I'm not why my comment seems to be so confusing for you. The Jedi don't know what Darth Sideous looks like, but they should be able to recognize a fellow Jedi Master, as it is the council that approves of these things.

So Palpatine and Syfo-Dias logically cannot be the same person.

YES. Sifo-Diyas and Palpataine are not the same person.

[WebLurker]

There's really only three ways this works on any level.

Syfo was secretly in league with the Sith.
Syfo was a dumbass who was completely manipulated by the Sith.
Syfo was pushing up daisies and impersonated by the Sith.

Canon seems to prove option three. We know that option one is false, option two seems unlikely since there's not a canonical indication that the Sith were leading him (although the non-canon Legends stuff did use that scenario), and we do know for a fact that the Sith did have him murdered around the time that the order was being set.

[thwhtGuardian]

But MASTER Syfo-Dias was a Jedi master when the clones were created. If Palpatine was the same guy, they would have recognized him regardless. "Hey, the Senator from Naboo looks exactly like Syfo! What's up with that?"

I'm not why my comment seems to be so confusing for you. The Jedi don't know what Darth Sideous looks like, but they should be able to recognize a fellow Jedi Master, as it is the council that approves of these things.

So Palpatine and Syfo-Dias logically cannot be the same person.

They aren't the same person...I'm not sure why you thought they were. Unless I'm mistaken, the exact how and why are never truly spelled out(nor do they have to be) but it's either Palpatine manipulated Syfo-Dias into creating the army and then killed him afterwards as he was no longer of any use, or Palpatine killed Syfo-Dias and then assumed his identity so he could use his Jedi Credentials to create the Clone army with out having it directly tied to him.

That the Jedi Master has a similar name to Palpatinte's sith title isn't evidence of them being the same guy it's just evidence of George Lucas' weird naming habits.

[Vegeta]

They aren't the same person...I'm not sure why you thought they were.

I didn't, I was under the impression others here thought they were though. I was mistaken.

[Cosmicbeing]

Its possible cloning has been around for thousands of years in the star wars universe and this initiative was no different than the countless other clones created before, meaning its a normal tool in war and civilisation building as a alternative or a parallel to robotics usage.