For Those that Joined from the ANAD Era, Will you stay for Status Quo Marvel

[Rage.Of.Olympus]

This attempt to replace established heroes with temporary and inferior versions of their supporting casts was just a terrible idea imo. It dilutes the brand, comes off forced, and puts off some of their more dedicated fanbase.

The worst part is the accusations levied at people voicing concerns or being unhappy. Jane could have a dozen of titles in her name and I wouldn't care, but have her steal Thor's name, identity and hammer and of course some people are going to get their feathers ruffled.

And tbh, anyone who leaves because characters who have been around for about 50 years are reclaiming their own identities don't really seem that dedicated as fans. If there is enough of a market, all your favorites can come back in different titles under their own unique and new identities.

[Digifiend]

And also who cares what they say about Luke, because Luke series actually sells and he has become a well known black Marvel character.

No it doesn't. Luke Cage was among last month's list of cancellations. He's well known for being in the New Avengers comic by Bendis a decade ago, and for his current Netflix show. Not because of his solo comics.

[Ezyo1000]

Most of the legacy characters failed fast and hard too even with all the marketing and effort Marvel put on them, so "it wouldn't sell" isn't an excuse.

Marvel's attempt at diversity in the last year was nothing but replacing estabilished heroes with lesser and temporary versions, there no variety in having multiple Spider-people, multiple people holding the Iron Man mantle with the same quirky stories. If they did like ANAD that actually tried to balance new and old, I'd be fine, but I'm not fine with the overpopulation of legacy heroes that happened after it and displaced most of non movie characters. Situation will be even worse if they keep them and bring the originals back giving two books for every hero name.

Yeah some did fail, just like plenty of other White male heroes failed too that weren't legacy Characters, difference is, when they fail no one says anything, But when a poc book fails it's a whole ordeal.

Honestly, I think Miles was a great addition, thing is in iOS universe he was THE Spider-Man. He was so popular he survived the incursions and made it to the 616 that's success, he isn't taking over 616 Parker, they are Co existing doing their own things. Ms Marvel, I wouldn't call her a legacy entirely to Carol but she is doing her own thing, arguably better then Carol. Success. Jane Thor, doing her own thing, Thor Odinson is coming back to being Worthy soon.

But they can come exist and do their own thing. I thought same as Cap was good and now that he is back as Falcon, his book is a good read yet he it's low sales now. So it shows that the whole "Give legacy Characters their own names and the will still be successful" isn't entirely true. Once they go back store owners don't support them. And really what does it matter if a few Characters have two books with two Characters sharing the mantle? If you don't like the legacy Character, no one is making you read it. Why take away other fans enjoyment because you don't like it, when you can Instead just read the titles you like?
Again Marvel has been doing nee ideas and trying out niche Characters and giving them minis or trying to get solo's going for them.

[Ezyo1000]

This attempt to replace established heroes with temporary and inferior versions of their supporting casts was just a terrible idea imo. It dilutes the brand, comes off forced, and puts off some of their more dedicated fanbase.

The worst part is the accusations levied at people voicing concerns or being unhappy. Jane could have a dozen of titles in her name and I wouldn't care, but have her steal Thor's name, identity and hammer and of course some people are going to get their feathers ruffled.

And tbh, anyone who leaves because characters who have been around for about 50 years are reclaiming their own identities don't really seem that dedicated as fans. If there is enough of a market, all your favorites can come back in different titles under their own unique and new identities.

Except how many times have these og Characters been killed, or replaced? Several times, we all know they come back so why Re people getting ruffled? And again look at Sam Wilson. When he was Cap he made it to like 21 issues before his series dropped to 20k sales, in his new book, it's issue 2 and it's at 20k sales, why? Because he isn't getting supported anymore. Him as Cap was a good idea and it worked pretty well. But when he is back as Falcon that same support is gone, Store owners ignore him and the book suffers. They can have two Characters.
Jane for awhile there (I haven't kept up on the numbers recently) was actually OUT selling og Thor, same writer, and she beat his numbers consistently. What does it hurt? If Thor is back with the hammer and Jane is around too what does it matter?

[9th.]

Are you talking about dumb racist 4chan fans? Or actual comic book readers? Who are of COLOR. Because actual black comic book readers would rather Marvel build up Black Panther, Storm, Monica, Blue Marvel, Blade, Brother Voodoo, or Blue Marvel than us have a corny Black version of Spider-Man, Iron man, Captain America, etc. I bet the majority of the black fanbase on this site will agree.

Lastly, I don't know how you guys think Marvel making black versions of their white characters is "groundbreaking", "different" or "empowering", because its definitely not empowering. And also who cares what they say about Luke, because Luke series actually sells and he has become a well known black Marvel character. i don't know why you brought up racist comic book fans, because again I can careless what they say.

I don't see a problem with having both. Ofc having a original is better but that doesn't make Miles or FalCap unnecessary imo. I enjoyed Sam's version of Cap a lot when I reading Spencer's run. I don't know if I'd call it "empowering" but it was definitely welcome as far as I'm concerned.

[DragonsChi]

But they can come exist and do their own thing. I thought same as Cap was good and now that he is back as Falcon, his book is a good read yet he it's low sales now. So it shows that the whole "Give legacy Characters their own names and the will still be successful" isn't entirely true. Once they go back store owners don't support them. And really what does it matter if a few Characters have two books with two Characters sharing the mantle? If you don't like the legacy Character, no one is making you read it. Why take away other fans enjoyment because you don't like it, when you can Instead just read the titles you like?
Again Marvel has been doing nee ideas and trying out niche Characters and giving them minis or trying to get solo's going for them.

Except how many times have these og Characters been killed, or replaced? Several times, we all know they come back so why Re people getting ruffled? And again look at Sam Wilson. When he was Cap he made it to like 21 issues before his series dropped to 20k sales, in his new book, it's issue 2 and it's at 20k sales, why? Because he isn't getting supported anymore. Him as Cap was a good idea and it worked pretty well. But when he is back as Falcon that same support is gone, Store owners ignore him and the book suffers. They can have two Characters.
Jane for awhile there (I haven't kept up on the numbers recently) was actually OUT selling og Thor, same writer, and she beat his numbers consistently. What does it hurt? If Thor is back with the hammer and Jane is around too what does it matter?

Sam does not need Captain America's name to be successful. Marvel just needs to keep doing what they are doing by leaving him as a main Avenger and leading a team. They need to keep using him in events. And they need for him to carve his own space out in the MU which he is currently doing in his solo.

Things do not happen over night and if Marvel keeps at it Sam will do better as time moves forward. Making him Captain America lite does nothing for the character or anyone else in the long term. It sure as heck doesn't help the chances for more original diverse characters to be created and to be use. It does however, continue to confirm to racist, company executives, and so on, that people of color can not stand on their own two feet without a white male giving them a boost.

Harsh to say but it's the truth. Having two books named Captain America, one with Steve and another with Sam, will only guarantee that Sam's book will still fall in sales. Not only that but he will be living in a shadow ,he was never suppose to be in the first place, in the minds of everyone else.

[CIA]

Yeah some did fail, just like plenty of other White male heroes failed too that weren't legacy Characters, difference is, when they fail no one says anything, But when a poc book fails it's a whole ordeal.

Honestly, I think Miles was a great addition, thing is in iOS universe he was THE Spider-Man. He was so popular he survived the incursions and made it to the 616 that's success, he isn't taking over 616 Parker, they are Co existing doing their own things. Ms Marvel, I wouldn't call her a legacy entirely to Carol but she is doing her own thing, arguably better then Carol. Success. Jane Thor, doing her own thing, Thor Odinson is coming back to being Worthy soon.

But they can come exist and do their own thing. I thought same as Cap was good and now that he is back as Falcon, his book is a good read yet he it's low sales now. So it shows that the whole "Give legacy Characters their own names and the will still be successful" isn't entirely true. Once they go back store owners don't support them. And really what does it matter if a few Characters have two books with two Characters sharing the mantle? If you don't like the legacy Character, no one is making you read it. Why take away other fans enjoyment because you don't like it, when you can Instead just read the titles you like?
Again Marvel has been doing nee ideas and trying out niche Characters and giving them minis or trying to get solo's going for them.

It's not a matter of just white male heroes, Marvel gives way more chances to legacy characters than non-legacy, see Prowler and Mosaic in their NOW books, they bombed, Marvel cut them instantly (like with Solo, Black Knight and more), while with the legacy characters they keep forcing them even with dismal sales. White replacement/sidekick characters are also met with vitriol by the comics reading community.

Kamala worked because she is a better and fresher character than Carol and she wasn't created just with the intent of replacing a fan favorite, X-23 works as Wolverine replacement too cause she was introduced years ago and they built the relationship with the original hero before she inherited his mantle. I never got the love for Miles, he is one of the lamest, blandest characters Marvel introduced in the last years and all his conflicts have no stakes because he will use his almighty venom blast to knock even a lord of hell in one hit. If they want to make a black led comic in the Spider-Man core I'd rather see another chance for Prowler that's not wasted with the clone garbage or even Cardiac, my favorite D-Lister than just black teen Peter. My gripe with Falcon taking over the Captain America identity was that it was poor thought, Falcon had his own mantle and status as Cap's partner, he should had kept his name and costume and used the shield while headlining the book, instead of looking like he raided the Avengers closet and reducing his Falcon mantle to a sidekick.

The problem is that I don't have any titles to read due to the glut of legacy character solos clogging the publishing line and keeping other titles from getting published since the stalwart titles aren't going nowhere and they have a limited number of product to release. I don't want to read Iron Man and Spider-Man in any of the white or black, male or female variants, I want to read Thunderbolts, Marvel UK and the silly, unexpected team books like NextWave and Superior Foes of Spider-Man. Thankfully the two latest announcements are books for a minor team a female character that isn't a legacy, hoping the wave of cancellations continue and more titles like those two surface.

[Smoov-E]

Sam does not need Captain America's name to be successful. Marvel just needs to keep doing what they are doing by leaving him as a main Avenger and leading a team. They need to keep using him in events. And they need for him to carve his own space out in the MU which he is currently doing in his solo.

Things do not happen over night and if Marvel keeps at it Sam will do better as time moves forward. Making him Captain America lite does nothing for the character or anyone else in the long term. It sure as heck doesn't help the chances for more original diverse characters to be created and to be use. It does however, continue to confirm to racist, company executives, and so on, that people of color can not stand on their own two feet without a white male giving them a boost.

Harsh to say but it's the truth. Having two books named Captain America, one with Steve and another with Sam, will only guarantee that Sam's book will still fall in sales. Not only that but he will be living in a shadow ,he was never suppose to be in the first place, in the minds of everyone else.

The fact that Sam’s comic isn’t selling shows that again people will lie and since he sold more as Cap here where more people Williston check him out then so called tried and true comic Falcon fans. Comic fans, they’ll lie to themselves every time and believe that lie to the fullest

Are you talking about dumb racist 4chan fans? Or actual comic book readers? Who are of COLOR. Because actual black comic book readers would rather Marvel build up Black Panther, Storm, Monica, Blue Marvel, Blade, Brother Voodoo, or Blue Marvel than us have a corny Black version of Spider-Man, Iron man, Captain America, etc. I bet the majority of the black fanbase on this site will agree.

Lastly, I don't know how you guys think Marvel making black versions of their white characters is "groundbreaking", "different" or "empowering", because its definitely not empowering. And also who cares what they say about Luke, because Luke series actually sells and he has become a well known black Marvel character. i don't know why you brought up racist comic book fans, because again I can careless what they say.

I’m talking about both because both are known to talk out their ass especially when it comes to characters of color succeeding as they often go for the “one at a time route” and this has been evident with the non stop throwing up of Storm’s name whenever someone mentions Misty or Monica and how “they’re ok but Storm has more name value because people remember her as being wallpaper for over a decade in X-Men cartoons and the like”.

As a person of color I also take offense to your assertion that Miles and Sam as respective Spider-Man and Captain America are corny since it’s been obvious for years the “Sam is great as Falcon and can sell off that” was just a lie comic fans no matter what color told themselves because it’s easier to say that then admit there’s no way they’d buy a Falcon book no matter the pitch and looking at the sales for it history has once again shown that it’s true. For all the hemming and hawing about Miles needs to be his own character folks are literally giving the ok for a supposedly leaked dumb and borderline racist characture name just so they can say “congrats you’re different now and I don’t have to fear I’ll accidentally pick up your comic as I definitely won’t pick up your new name comic as it is but I’ll come into the thread about it’s demise and pretend I care”.

Luke sold so well that after all the complaining about how the art for PM&IF was so ugly and to cartoony when his solo gets a more “pleasing” artist these complainers still no showed as expected but showed up in the thread to mementos the cancellation of a comic they didn’t buy and never planned to buy. Most posters of color here didn’t care about Black Panther until the movie announcement and Coates added Storm to the comic and then suddenly it became “so she’s going to be in the movie right cause she just has to be because people remember her as wallpaper”.

Meanwhile the Sony Miles trailer drops and all the folks of color on Facebook and Twitter seem pretty empowered but apparently that doesn’t count because they don’t subscribe to the great “I support original characters of color” lie

[DragonsChi]

The fact that Sam’s comic isn’t selling shows that again people will lie and since he sold more as Cap here where more people Williston check him out then so called tried and true comic Falcon fans. Comic fans, they’ll lie to themselves every time and believe that lie to the fullest

As mentioned by others in this thread store owners buy less solo's of characters that are not major stars. Marvel needs to work towards making those characters major stars so people will want more of them. The solution isn't a name swap because again when the real title holder of the name comes back those characters will be in the same boat.

You build up characters through exposure and giving fans a reason to care. The process is not complicated. These band-aid fixes have proven time and time again to be weak. Proof of that is Marvels overall sales dropping in during ANDA or how top creators of the ANDA project have been "removed". Which several here have conveniently failed to mention at all.

I believe most people would like to see prominent diverse characters at Marvel. But taking one character way for another is the same has "Cutting off your nose to SPITE your face." . It's a loosing battle that will NEVER give anyone what they really want. It's a false temporary illusion of what some feel is just, ideal, and long lasting.

The best things in life take time, continued nurture, and dedication to make great. Building up diverse heroes as their own men and women need all those things for them to truly survive in this industry.

[Ezyo1000]

Sam does not need Captain America's name to be successful. Marvel just needs to keep doing what they are doing by leaving him as a main Avenger and leading a team. They need to keep using him in events. And they need for him to carve his own space out in the MU which he is currently doing in his solo.

Things do not happen over night and if Marvel keeps at it Sam will do better as time moves forward. Making him Captain America lite does nothing for the character or anyone else in the long term. It sure as heck doesn't help the chances for more original diverse characters to be created and to be use. It does however, continue to confirm to racist, company executives, and so on, that people of color can not stand on their own two feet without a white male giving them a boost.

Harsh to say but it's the truth. Having two books named Captain America, one with Steve and another with Sam, will only guarantee that Sam's book will still fall in sales. Not only that but he will be living in a shadow ,he was never suppose to be in the first place, in the minds of everyone else.

Hey i hope your right, however Sam Being Cap was actually a pretty good thing, not because he needed a boost, but because he represented some good point in America today and how a black man in America addressing racists and division. As I said I like hos Falcon book but it's not being supported and the sales have dropped. It's a good book too with good dialogue and action. He just isn't getting the support he needs. I agree that he needs to stay relevant and leaf Avenger team's and be in event's as well. Whether marvel continues to do so remains to be seen, but this whole give legacy Characters Their own identity doesn't work unless the support is actually there. Because again Sam is back as Falcon and he isn't being supported like he should.

[DragonsChi]

Hey i hope your right, however Sam Being Cap was actually a pretty good thing, not because he needed a boost, but because he represented some good point in America today and how a black man in America addressing racists and division.

You act as if a costume is the only way he or any other character can address these issues. Having a flag painted on you does not make you more of champion for America. See Martian Luther King Jr. for further proof of that.

As I said I like his Falcon book but it's not being supported and the sales have dropped. It's a good book too with good dialogue and action. He just isn't getting the support he needs. I agree that he needs to stay relevant and leaf Avenger team's and be in event's as well.

Glad you are enjoying it. It really is a great title. You should post more in the Falcon thread.

Whether marvel continues to do so remains to be seen, but this whole give legacy Characters Their own identity doesn't work unless the support is actually there. Because again Sam is back as Falcon and he isn't being supported like he should.

Again, things take time. Sam's sales where declining even as Cap, again because Steve came back. Steve will always come back that is not going to change nor should anyone want him too stay away. He has his fans who help keep Marvel a float and thereby keeps other characters in the MU around.

Sam needs Marvel to continue to show fans why they like him and why we should as well. Which they have been doing. Quick fixes will do nothing for him in the long run. His current lack of sales shows how that is true more so than it does for people currently not supporting his book now. When Marvel made Sam Captain America they all but said " Sam can not stand on his own." which only confirmed it in the minds of everyone else. So why should they follow him if the company who created the character does not believe in him enough to push him forward as his own character.

Again, it takes time to build a fan base. Marvel needs to take the time. End of story there.

[Ezyo1000]

As mentioned by others in this thread store owners buy less solo's of characters that are not major starts. Marvel needs to work towards making those characters major stars so people will want more of them. The solution isn't a name swap because again when the real title holder of the name comes back those characters will be in the same boat.

You build up characters through exposure and giving fans a reason to care. The process is not complicated. These band-aid fixes have proven time and time again to be weak. Proof of that is Marvels overall sales dropping in during ANDA or how top creators of the ANDA project have been "removed". Which several here have conveniently failed to mention at all.

I believe most people would like to see prominent diverse characters at Marvel. But taking one character way for another is the same has "Cutting off your nose to SPITE your face." . It's a loosing battle that will NEVER give anyone what they really want. It's a false temporary illusion of what some feel is just, ideal, and long lasting.

The best things in life take time, continued nurture, and dedication to make great. Building up diverse heroes as their own men and women need all those things for them to truly survive in this industry.

Your right in some pointsm but at the same time even when Characters are getting that push it's still half assed.
Black panther is the first Black super hero. He had his own nation that is the most advanced on earth. Has the only deposit of Vibranium on earth. He is one of the top geniuses, h2h fighters and THE prep Master of the MU (he was the prep master before Batman became that figure head.

In the mcu he is getting the push he deserves finally after being around for 50 years, bit in the comics he still doesn't get the same push in event's like other White Characters except in recent years with Hickmans time runs out. Other then that he Isn't being out as prominent like the mcu. Yet Carol is pushed to be the answer to WW. So Marvel half asses thing's on the Comic side for POC. Even for Their most popular POC original Hero. It would be nice if marvel would support Their divers hero's like the do their white counter parts

[Mike_Murdock]

No it doesn't. Luke Cage was among last month's list of cancellations. He's well known for being in the New Avengers comic by Bendis a decade ago, and for his current Netflix show. Not because of his solo comics.

It's a shame because I really like David Walker as a writer. Before we found out Defenders was ending, I thought he would be a perfect choice to fill that role.

[DragonsChi]

Your right in some pointsm but at the same time even when Characters are getting that push it's still half assed.
Black panther is the first Black super hero. He had his own nation that is the most advanced on earth. Has the only deposit of Vibranium on earth. He is one of the top geniuses, h2h fighters and THE prep Master of the MU (he was the prep master before Batman became that figure head.

In the mcu he is getting the push he deserves finally after being around for 50 years, bit in the comics he still doesn't get the same push in event's like other White Characters except in recent years with Hickmans time runs out. Other then that he Isn't being out as prominent like the mcu. Yet Carol is pushed to be the answer to WW. So Marvel half asses thing's on the Comic side for POC. Even for Their most popular POC original Hero. It would be nice if marvel would support Their divers hero's like the do their white counter parts

Marvel could stand to do somewhat better with the Black Panther. However, I actually believe Black Panthers main problem is the way he is continually written verse Marvel not really trying to make him a success. Out of almost all of the POC's at marvel he has gotten the most chances at a Solo title. He has also been one of the few to be in continual publications in some form or another since 2003. It's very rare to have a full year without Black Panther somewhere. Then you have the events with the Illuminati, AvX, that thing where everyone learned some secrete or something that I didn't read and so on.

So in a sense Marvel could do better but I wouldn't say they haven't tried very hard. Again, I think the way Black Panther is written is more so the issue as to why he hasn't caught on then anything else. But that is probably a topic for another discussion.

[skyvolt2000]

The worst part is the accusations levied at people voicing concerns or being unhappy.

No it's not worst. The accusations get tossed out because no once can say this-"I am not interested in the book after looking at the previews."

Instead we get folks trying to rally others to boycott certain books and a collection of insults, lies and nonsense.

If Jane with that Hammer is an issue-it better be an issue when a white guy does it. I don't remember seeing backlash to Erik Masterson when he was Thor.

Nor James Rhodes when he took over for Tony TWICE.

Nor USA Agent or Winter Soldier when they took over for Steve.

This attempt to replace established heroes with temporary and inferior versions of their supporting casts was just a terrible idea imo

We had 3 Supergirls. The second gave us 80 solo issues. The current one has over 100+.
We had 4 Robins. Tim Drake the 3rd Robin has over 206 solo issues.
We had 2 Nightwing. Dick Grayson has over 200+ solo issues.
We had 3 Batgirls. Cassandra Cain run lasted 5 years.
We had 2 Batwomen. Kate seems to be doing good.
We have 6 Earth Lanterns-5 have boasted runs over 30 issues. Number 6 would have gotten more if politics didn't screw his run over.
We had 4 guys claim to be Superman. Conner Kent & Steel boasted runs of at least 5 years. Asian Superman is getting support despite sales.
We had Arzeal as Batman. Arzeal got 100 issues as he gave up the role.
We had 3 Blue Beetles-Jaime is the longest lasting one with 72 solo issues (3 runs)
We had 2 Firestorms-Jason lead or costarred for 52 issues.
And Wally West say HELLO with his 300 issues as the main Flash.

DC's most successful POC lead books (no Milestone does not count because Dc does not own them)

Kyle (replaced Hal) 171 solo/lead role issues
Jaime Reyes (replaced Ted) 72
Cassandra Cain (replaced Babs) 72
Steel (replaced Clark) 54
Jason Rusch (replaced Ronnie & colead with him) 52
Michael Lane (replaced John Paul) 18
John Stewart 18
Michael Holt 8
Original POC
Black Lighting 36-that is a huge gap.
Cyborg 32
Katana 10
Vibe 10
Batwing is a gray area. 40

Yet Dc doesn't get called out for it.

Marvel original POC lead books
Black Panther 169
Luke Cage 167 (lead or colead)
James Rhodes as War Machine only 53 (76 if you include his IM runs)
Falcon at least 32 under his name as lead or costar (with CA id 60)
Blade 33
Moon Girl 27
Night Thrasher 21
Storm 10
Nightwatch 12
Prowler 12

If I put Miles Morales in this group 70 (80 if you count the Spider-Men minis)