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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member G-Potion's Avatar
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    I feel like if you go in expecting to see what solicits gave you, then you'd expect to see some importance from HIVE and then subsequently be disappointed. On the issue itself though, in my opinion, I don't feel like HIVE is wasted because a few crucial things happen in that sequence, namely Bizarro's erractic action and Jason's repressed feeling. I like how misleading the solicit has been because when was the last time the issue content absolutely floored us in its unpredictability, even after the previews? Similarly, I hope the next issue will surprise me in the same way.

    On Rebirth RHATO so far, Bizzaro Reborn is a long game that I didn't think would conclude anytime soon so for me this arc is far from over to judge. Don't think Lobdell is slipping either because he's tackling very heavy subjects here, I'd say on par with the underlying theme of RH/A. The man still has many ideas. Rebirth RHATO first arc was very tightly written though I have to say, this current one excites me more with its unpredictability and direction towards dark psychology. With Smart Bizzaro and now the introduction of Creeper, Lobdell can now be very adventurous with the book, which I think has always been his strong point.
    Last edited by G-Potion; 01-11-2018 at 07:18 PM.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member G-Potion's Avatar
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    For all we know, Artemis could have crossed path with him while she was on her quest for the bow. She has been around for a long time, singleminded focus doesn't mean something else couldn't happen on the way.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member G-Potion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    Now, people have noticed the similarity in concept of Bizarro dipping himself in the Kriptonite and Jason in the Lazarus Pit. What is your take, is he trying to achieve immortality or a higher state to further assist the others or is he just cheating death like his "mother" did?
    If it's immortality he's after, you know what I want to come after this? A perspective from Jason on the same topic. Is he immortal? Does he want it? Man, it feels like this issue opens up a whole bunch of psychological arguments potential!!

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Potion View Post
    I feel like if you go in expecting to see what solicits gave you, then you'd expect to see some importance from HIVE and then subsequently be disappointed. On the issue itself though, in my opinion, I don't feel like HIVE is wasted because a few crucial things happen in that sequence, namely Bizarro's erractic action and Jason's repressed feeling. I like how misleading the solicit has been because when was the last time the issue content absolutely floored us in its unpredictability, even after the previews? Similarly, I hope the next issue will surprise me in the same way.

    On Rebirth RHATO so far, Bizzaro Reborn is a long game that I didn't think would conclude anytime soon so for me this arc is far from over to judge. Don't think Lobdell is slipping either because he's tackling very heavy subjects here, I'd say on par with the underlying theme of RH/A. The man still has many ideas. Rebirth RHATO first arc was very tightly written though I have to say, this current one excites me more with its unpredictability and direction towards dark psychology. With Smart Bizzaro and now the introduction of Creeper, Lobdell can now be very adventurous with the book, which I think has always been his strong point.
    Is nota about whatever solicits might or not spoiled. HIVE was a pointless addition to the issue and by extension, the entire arc.

    Compare it with the way HIVE was used on RH/A, despite only facing mooks and a middle range boss, they led the conflict on that issue and served better to showcase Jason's training with the All Caste. Here they were dealt with on a couple of pages and promptly forgotten.

    Bizarro's actions aren't erratic and while the nature of what the queen saw is unclear, everything else is pretty straightforward. HIVE is pretty much just padding that conveniently avoided a proper confrontation between Bizarro, Jason and Artemis.

    Is fine for a issue to be unpredictable but this one was downright obtuse.

    As I said, is fine to have long spanning arcs but Bizarro Reborn has pacing issues despite running for five issues. Another thing to consider is that it failed to properly capitalize on certain elements introduced and thus I doubt most of the things you've been speculating will actually pan out.
    Last edited by Dark_Tzitzimine; 01-11-2018 at 08:17 PM.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member G-Potion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    Is nota about whatever solicits might or not spoiled. HIVE was a pointless addition to the issue and by extension, the entire arc.

    Compare it with the way HIVE was used on RH/A, despite only facing mooks and a middle range boss, they led the conflict on that issue and served better to showcase Jason's training with the All Caste. Here they were dealt with on a couple of pages and promptly forgotten.
    I agree on wanting more All Caste showing. However, in this issue I feel the role Lobdell wants HIVE to play here is different than in RH/A, as in to have a mindreading opponent that could make Bizzaro's frantic rescue believable and more importantly, to let us know a bit going on within Jason, as he is repressing it and unlikely to voice it out, even in his own thought balloons. I know we've been having a long discussion about whether Jason is oblivious or acting it, and this issue alleviates my concern by a lot.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member G-Potion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    As I said, is fine to have long spanning arcs but Bizarro Reborn has pacing issues despite running for five issues. Another thing to consider is that it failed to properly capitalize on certain elements introduced and thus I doubt most of the things you've been speculating will actually pan out.
    I remember an interview long long time ago, in which Lobdell said he doesn't like wrapping up everything in an arc because real life doesn't work like that. He likes to introduce elements and leave them there until much much later to pick up. Looks like it's happening here. I remember being impressed with the interview, and I didn't even know who he was nor was I reading RHATO at that time. But I like that way of thinking.

  7. #67
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Pup Pup stole the show in this issue and I wonder what past Artemis and Creeper have.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Potion View Post
    I agree on wanting more All Caste showing. However, in this issue I feel the role Lobdell wants HIVE to play here is different than in RH/A, as in to have a mindreading opponent that could make Bizzaro's frantic rescue believable and more importantly, to let us know a bit going on within Jason, as he is repressing it and unlikely to voice it out, even in his own thought balloons. I know we've been having a long discussion about whether Jason is oblivious or acting it, and this issue alleviates my concern by a lot.
    I agree with you there about the function of HIVE here versus what it was in RH/A. Here its purpose was to reveal that Jason has been repressing something and not to give Jason a way to showcase his All Caste training. I'm still not sure if the thing he is repressing is related to Bizzaro's strange behavior or if its something to do with himself (possibly related to his resurrection) but without HIVE's involvement we wouldn't know he was repressing anything for certain.

    As for whether Jason is oblivious to what's been going on with Bizarro or not I'd have to say he isn't. He's been trained by Bats after all so I really don't think much slips past him. I'm pretty certain that there have been plenty of red flags that Jay has likely catalogued.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 01-11-2018 at 09:50 PM.
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  8. #68
    Astonishing Member G-Potion's Avatar
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    So RHATO gets back to top form according to this long time reviewer.

    https://batman-news.com/2018/01/11/r...aws-18-review/

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Potion View Post
    I agree on wanting more All Caste showing. However, in this issue I feel the role Lobdell wants HIVE to play here is different than in RH/A, as in to have a mindreading opponent that could make Bizzaro's frantic rescue believable and more importantly, to let us know a bit going on within Jason, as he is repressing it and unlikely to voice it out, even in his own thought balloons. I know we've been having a long discussion about whether Jason is oblivious or acting it, and this issue alleviates my concern by a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Pup Pup stole the show in this issue and I wonder what past Artemis and Creeper have.

    I agree with you there about the function of HIVE here versus what it was in RH/A. Here its purpose was to reveal that Jason has been repressing something and not to give Jason a way to showcase his All Caste training. I'm still not sure if the thing he is repressing is related to Bizzaro's strange behavior or if its something to do with himself (possibly related to his resurrection) but without HIVE's involvement we wouldn't know he was repressing anything for certain.

    As for whether Jason is oblivious to what's been going on with Bizarro or not I'd have to say he isn't. He's been trained by Bats after all so I really don't think much slips past him. I'm pretty certain that there have been plenty of red flags that Jay has likely catalogued.
    You guys aren't seeing my issue with this development (and that in fact is a general issue I've had with the entire plot) is that the addition is completely superfluos and makes the plot developments needlessly contrived. Letting the audience know that Jason has doubts about Bizarro's behavior didn't need of a mind reading enemy and even less one so powerful like Queen Bee is. She was Brainiac's second in command last time Lobdell used her. Her apparition as it is now feels forced and while it can be shown to be part of larger plan in upcoming issues, the whole thing with the SS and Batwoman on this arc makes me doubt the payoff (if there's any) would be. The wast of HIVE is also in stark contrast with the skillful way Lobdell handed NOWHERE and Harvest's appearance in the previous issue.

    Furthermore, Lobdell's handle of Jason's character is unbelievable strong so it baffles me he's making use of such a roundabout elements to do the same thing he has done in the past in a more straightforward way.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Potion View Post
    I remember an interview long long time ago, in which Lobdell said he doesn't like wrapping up everything in an arc because real life doesn't work like that. He likes to introduce elements and leave them there until much much later to pick up. Looks like it's happening here. I remember being impressed with the interview, and I didn't even know who he was nor was I reading RHATO at that time. But I like that way of thinking.
    I'm aware of that but I repeat you, is being very poorly executed this time. It lacks a proper closure, making it feel like a rushed ending (and considering the stuffing present on the entire issue is possible that was the case) Previous times that Lobdell has done this, he has managed to offer a satisfying conclusion to the individual arcs while still moving forward the overarching plot. The thing with Duela and the Untitled being the clearest example of this.

  10. #70
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    Do we know HIVE Queen was even referring to Jason knowing about what Bizarro was doing? Why would that get a big reaction from her? I read it as Jason knowing while trying to find Gunn and the telepathic bit as a red herring. Bizarro mistakes it for something referring to him but it's really something else.

  11. #71
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMarie View Post
    Do we know HIVE Queen was even referring to Jason knowing about what Bizarro was doing? Why would that get a big reaction from her? I read it as Jason knowing while trying to find Gunn and the telepathic bit as a red herring. Bizarro mistakes it for something referring to him but it's really something else.
    I read that the same way you did so I don't think its has to do with Bizarro at all myself and that it definitely has to do with something else entirely. My theory right now is that it has something to do with Jason himself, possibly regarding something connected to his resurrection or maybe the Pit. He has always said that he doesn't remember how he came back to life but maybe he's been repressing the memory of it without realizing he was doing so.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    I read that the same way you did so I don't think its has to do with Bizarro at all myself and that it definitely has to do with something else entirely. My theory right now is that it has something to do with Jason himself, possibly regarding something connected to his resurrection or maybe the Pit. He has always said that he doesn't remember how he came back to life but maybe he's been repressing the memory of it without realizing he was doing so.
    Right. Even if Jason knows something is wrong with Bizarro I doubt he'd know what Bizarro is actually doing. If Jason is just burying the fact his buddy is acting weird that doesn't seem like something that'd shock her or she'd care about.

    If I remember right Jason used to claim he couldn't remember anything after he died until the Lazarus Pit, in Secret Origins maybe? Then he freaks out when he wakes up in the dark after the plane crash thinking he's in coffin. I think you're on the right track, that its related to something he repressed about his death and resurrection. We've had other hints that something might be wrong or off. Jason recalling Talia looking horrified while he's in the pit. His unexplained return to life that Talia told Ducra had Jason come back without his soul before the pit restored it in early RHATO. The mention of the All Blades being powered by his soul, etc.

  13. #73
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMarie View Post
    Right. Even if Jason knows something is wrong with Bizarro I doubt he'd know what Bizarro is actually doing. If Jason is just burying the fact his buddy is acting weird that doesn't seem like something that'd shock her or she'd care about.
    I imagine that Jason is aware something is going on even if he's not yet sure exactly what it is. There are enough clues to that effect and I'm sure Jason's been trying to put them together in order to figure out exactly what Biz is up to.

    If I remember right Jason used to claim he couldn't remember anything after he died until the Lazarus Pit, in Secret Origins maybe? Then he freaks out when he wakes up in the dark after the plane crash thinking he's in coffin. I think you're on the right track, that its related to something he repressed about his death and resurrection. We've had other hints that something might be wrong or off. Jason recalling Talia looking horrified while he's in the pit. His unexplained return to life that Talia told Ducra had Jason come back without his soul before the pit restored it in early RHATO. The mention of the All Blades being powered by his soul, etc.
    If memory serves there was also an interview where Lobdell mentioned something about Jason questioning whether he even has a soul so maybe this is where that idea is coming into play at.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    I imagine that Jason is aware something is going on even if he's not yet sure exactly what it is. There are enough clues to that effect and I'm sure Jason's been trying to put them together in order to figure out exactly what Biz is up to.

    If memory serves there was also an interview where Lobdell mentioned something about Jason questioning whether he even has a soul so maybe this is where that idea is coming into play at.
    I believe Jason knows something is up with Bizarro just not enough to freak HIVE Queen. As far as we the audience knows he hasn't even done anything too world shattering. Since she previously was acting smug and in control even when threatened with a weapon that could harm her whatever she saw must be shocking to her.

    Makes sense, Jason might be pushing it aside because he doesn't think he can handle the answers.

  15. #75
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMarie View Post
    I believe Jason knows something is up with Bizarro just not enough to freak HIVE Queen. As far as we the audience knows he hasn't even done anything too world shattering. Since she previously was acting smug and in control even when threatened with a weapon that could harm her whatever she saw must be shocking to her.

    Makes sense, Jason might be pushing it aside because he doesn't think he can handle the answers.
    Yeah, she was certainly way more shocked about whatever she saw in Jason's mind than was warranted if it was just about Biz, which is what made me curious about what it was she saw.
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    Oh my goodness gracious! I've been bamboozled!

    When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change. AVATAR AANG

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