Hey, isn't Thor worthy again?

[JKtheMac]

That makes no sense at all, sorry. He wasn't absolutely evil wielding the un-hammer.

So to you it makes sense that Aaron would allow another writer to decide when his character is worthy again, totally destroying the entire premise of his own story. Seems pretty unlikely to me. And we know from interviews that Aaron was consulted on this.

And as to concluding 'nobody knows' yes we do as does Aaron and Hickman. Just because a few people are confused doesn't make the confusion the default. If you choose to wilfully be confused that is your right, but don't tell those of us that see clarity and no confusion that we are wrong.

[JKtheMac]

I didn't follow the aftermath of Battleworld too closely as there weren't a ton of books I was interested in at the time so I dunno how accurate my reading of events is.

But I figured when Thor was facing down a hundred Beyonders, knowing he was about to die and standing his ground like a badass, he found his worthiness. The look I recall on his face when he couldn't lift the un-hammer wasn't one of "Im not un-worthy nor worthy, Im just a dude!" it was "Im about to die, and have found my worthiness in these last moments."

As for why he's no longer worthy.....are we certain he isn't? I don't recall him trying to lift any hammer since Secret Wars (though I could've missed it). And regardless, didn't everything from the incursions on get erased from time? That's how I thought it unfolded (though again....limited knowledge here). If that's the case then Thor never fought an army of Beyonders in the first place.

The point is he is taking a worthy stance so he is no-longer unworthy enough to lift Thorr's hammer. We can't possibly imagine that everyone in Thorr's alternative universe can lift that hammer. Many people in the MU are worthy but not worthy enough to lift Thor's hammer. Many people are unworthy but not unworthy enough to lift Thorr's hammer.

The concept of Mjolnor has never been "everyone that is worthy by any degree can wield the power of Thor" it is a self reflective enchantment. One needs to be worthy enough to wield the power of Thor.

[HaveAtThee]

If anything that symbolizes a total lack of editorial discipline on Marvel's part. I'm surprised they let that scene slip through.

[JKtheMac]

If anything that symbolizes a total lack of editorial discipline on Marvel's part. I'm surprised they let that scene slip through.

So somehow allowing the writer of one book to actually consult and collaborate with the writer of another title and find a way to handle a character that has been changed is poor editorial as opposed to best practice?

[HaveAtThee]

I thought Hickman's "Unworthy Hammer" with that Beyonder scene was meant to convey Thor's "worthiness?" I didn't read the story perhaps I'm misinterpreting.

[Mike_Murdock]

If anything that symbolizes a total lack of editorial discipline on Marvel's part. I'm surprised they let that scene slip through.

The scene was thematically nice for Hickman's run. He then died and the universe got reborn so it's not like it was meant to last. I mean, if we want Hickman's changes to stick, Odinson should be worthy but also dead. Editorial would let Hickman do what he wants for his story as long as it isn't overwriting what Jason Aaron is doing and I don't think it did given the reset button.

[JKtheMac]

I thought Hickman's "Unworthy Hammer" with that Beyonder scene was meant to convey Thor's "worthiness?" I didn't read the story perhaps I'm misinterpreting.

You may have "thought" that but I can reassure you categorically that this was not Hickman's intent. He was very clearly playing into the grey area by using a mirror universe. Presumably in that mirror universe only a very tiny group of people are unworthy enough to wield the power of Thorr. Otherwise that mirror universe is very odd indeed and not a reflection of the MU.

[Rage.Of.Olympus]

I thought Hickman's "Unworthy Hammer" with that Beyonder scene was meant to convey Thor's "worthiness?" I didn't read the story perhaps I'm misinterpreting.

It definitely implied to me that he was finally Worthy again. It made the scene a lot better in a bitter sweet type of way.

Tbh, I found Hickman's treatment of Thor far preferable to Aaron's in the last half. Which is kind of sad.

[Rage.Of.Olympus]

You may have "thought" that but I can reassure you categorically that this was not Hickman's intent. He was very clearly playing into the grey area by using a mirror universe. Presumably in that mirror universe only a very tiny group of people are unworthy enough to wield the power of Thorr. Otherwise that mirror universe is very odd indeed and not a reflection of the MU.

Do you have a direct quote from Hickman or are you perhaps a mutant telepath? Otherwise I'm not entirely clear as to how you can be so certain of Hickman's intent? Especially when the majority of people I've discussed the scene with understood it as Thor being worthy again.

[CraigTheCylon]

I have two answers to this problem.

One, there's a chance that Odinson's sudden worthiness in the face of his end was both situational and temporary; i.e. he could only see himself as worthy again in that particular moment, and afterwards was unable to mentally 'get there' again. Unless he's forever being followed by an army of angry Beyonders, he'd still have a ways to grow before he can be his full self again.

Or two, the Secret Wars aftermath changed him. Remember, when Tony Stark died in Time Runs Out, he was in full jerkoff 'Superior' Iron Man form, as he had been since AXIS. Then after Secret Wars, he was back to just regular Iron Man with (unless I missed something) no explanation as to how he recovered his faculties. Is it so hard to believe that Thor's restored worthiness, gained only in the dying moments of Time Runs Out, would have similarly been cancelled out by the universal refresh? Which basically means it's all Reed Richards' fault, and I'm fine with that. Screw him.

[JKtheMac]

Do you have a direct quote from Hickman or are you perhaps a mutant telepath? Otherwise I'm not entirely clear as to how you can be so certain of Hickman's intent? Especially when the majority of people I've discussed the scene with understood it as Thor being worthy again.

I have listened to him talking about his discussion with Aaron on an old podcast. And ‘people you have talked to’ vs common sense that when a character is being writtten by a specific writer their major issues will not be resolved outside of that writer’s books.

And the LOGIC of the writing by Hickman is obvious. The mirror universe is a simple shorthand that everyone understands. Thorr wouldn’t be a mirror Thor if he was just ‘not worthy’. He has to be exceptional.

[Mike_Murdock]

Do people want Hickman's ending for Thor Odinson? Basically, he's worthy but now dead?

[Frontier]

In essence Hickman wanted to give Thor a good moment before the end so he wrote a scene that indicated his worthiness was still intact but Aaron's story still required Thor to be Unworthy and not in a position to be regarded as worthy so it's not acknowledged.

Just like how you don't see Steve or Tony bringing up the fact that they tried to kill each other at the end of the world.

Do people want Hickman's ending for Thor Odinson? Basically, he's worthy but now dead?

It beats working for Hydra .

It would probably have been a better way for Thor to go out before Aaron was ready to make him Worthy again then just wandering aimlessly around other books or being Jane's sidekick. But your mileage may vary.

[JKtheMac]

It never ceases to amaze me how much people want to twist things just so they fit better within their sensibilities.

1. The 616 characters all died and then they were all saved and placed in the new MU.
2. The way Hickman and Aaron constructed the Thor element of Secret Wars Thor Odinson was alive on Battleworld. He is a character in the stories so he didn't even die.
3. Richards and co. built an new universe and populated it with everyone he saved from the 616 and the 1610 and the dispossessed characters also ended up there.
4. There have been dozens of characters that were assumed dead that have cropped up in the MU since.
5. The stories written about the 1610 characters are usually predicated upon them being dispossessed of their universe.
6. Some writers, especially Soule have speculated that some members of the public may eventually realise they are not in the same universe as they were born in but so far none of these stories have got past editorial.

So Unworthy Thor is not only canonically still uncertain of his worthiness based upon Aaron's books (which take priority because he has control of the character) Odinson is the same character that never died, in a new universe where the 1610 Mjolnir returned too because it is just as much its universe as Odinsons.

[Ascended]

I thought they erased all history from the start of the incursions?

I mean, those events can't still be remembered. In the first post-Secret Wars issue of Iron Man, a cop says something about how Tony doesn't just kill people, yet during Time Runs Out the whole world was hunting Tony for his role in the incursions and all the deaths on his hands. And in the first issue of the post-Battleworld Ultimates didn't the Blue Marvel know that something had happened to the universe (thanks to science!) but he wasn't sure what?

So the first incursion kills T'Challa's students, crap falls apart, the multiverse ends, Battleworld happens, etc. Then everything gets put back together (more or less) and time is wound back to that first incursion.....and T'Challa's students no longer die (which opens up the new space-Wakanda or whatever they're doing in Black Panther).

So Thor "technically" never lifted Thorr's un-hammer in the first place, because Hickman's entire Avengers run was wiped out of history. Unless it's said that Thor actually remembers the previous timeline. I havent seen it said that he does, but I could have easily missed it since I haven't caught all of his appearances since then. If he does remember it, can someone point me to the issue?