Rape in the Avengers and Avengers #200

[Curlytop]

That issue came out in October 1980 a different era I mean the biggest "love" story of that year was Luke and Laura on the run in the summer of 1980 that led to a 1981 wedding that had 30 million viewers on Daytime and Luke and Laura went on the run after Laura's husband Scotty learned Luke had raped her.

Ugh god, soaps are such garbage. There are likely things like that in so-called romance novels too. Vomit worthy.

[Mike_Murdock]

Credit for the story and exactly who did what is understandably in dispute. It is probably best not to take any one party's word for it.

Yeah, this is a story that's toxic for everyone to accept writing responsibility for. That being said, he gets a plot credit but not a script credit. I think the dialogue is Michelinie's without dispute. I also did want to point out that, while this story reads like a problematic Jim Shooter story, so did the story with the Absorbing Man. Clearly Michaelinie either naturally tended towards similar stories or he was consciously imitating Shooter's run. Either way, he's just as credible a candidate to deserve blame as anyone else.

[tliscord]

Yeah, this is a story that's toxic for everyone to accept writing responsibility for. That being said, he gets a plot credit but not a script credit. I think the dialogue is Michelinie's without dispute. I also did want to point out that, while this story reads like a problematic Jim Shooter story, so did the story with the Absorbing Man. Clearly Michaelinie either naturally tended towards similar stories or he was consciously imitating Shooter's run. Either way, he's just as credible a candidate to deserve blame as anyone else.

Has Michelinie ever spoken about this publicly?

If you consider he penned “Demon in the Bottle”, Avengers 200 and the preceding issues with the Absorbing man could’ve been an insightful story about sexual assault rather than what it eventually became. Clearly, Michelinie didn’t shy away from controversial material but I agree, here, they were all very wide of the mark, if they were ever aware of it to begin with.

A little unsettling considering their audience at the time included many impressionable teen males.

[leokearon]

As a kid I didn't notice how messed up Avengers #200 was.

But even as a kid, I figured out what the Absorbing Man wanted to do with that random lady he kidnapped.

It's worse when Michelinie has the lady feel bad for A.M. at the end.

Creel/Absorbing Man's cornered by the Avengers, so lets his hostage go and seems to commit suicide by merging with the ocean. Said hostage even asks the Avengers if they couldn't have just let him get away (I assume after freeing her...but still).WTF.

Even as a kid I thought something was off about that one.

The idea that women can be won by men, despite themselves, looks to be more of a Shooter thing than Michelinie thing, though I don't remember any of his Legion
stories being that rapey.

Same here, I remember first reading it, I didn't notice the whole rape context, I was more unnerved by Carol going off to have sex with her son.

[Punisher007]

It was a TERRIBLE idea for a story (and the fact that no one involved is willing to step up and take credit for it speaks volumes). I mean even leaving aside the icky stuff, it was just a really lame idea for the 200th issue of your comic, really THAT'S the best that you've got to mark this occasion?

[Ghostwise]

The first: All the Avengers are being brainwashed, which is why they're acting so bizzare about the mystery baby. In this version, the Avengers are supposed to be seen as behaving abnormally. There's such strong sentiments that it's a supernatural rape baby the story doesn't shy away from. Then, when Carol sees Marcus, it's magically and instantaneously washed away as well. Even when the story went out of its way to contrast Immortus's brainwashing with Marcus's romantic efforts, it still concedes there was a subtle boost from his mind control machines.

In-universe, the Avengers beyond Carol pretty much have to be brainwashed. Their attitude toward Marcus makes no sense whatsoever, and they are falling over themselves to let him do whatever he wants.

But the story is so actively awful that doing jazz hands and stating that "they were all brainwashed so it's all fine, no blame here" can't work. So the Claremont follow-up has to put the blame on the characters. Which makes everything slightly worse, but then how do you make *that* better ?

At least Claremont seemed to be going for a raising-consciousness-about-abuse angle (which is ironic given some of the stuff he wrote), so point for him.

Or, if they want, if there are other eras or time periods where similar things occurred.

The treatment of the Cat (Greer Nelson) is sort of similar. Another take at a women's lib-themed superheroine, who in Avengers suddenly becomes an incompetent coward who leaves the team as a complete failure. And after the rapey incident with Graviton you alluded to, to boot.

[Carabas]

The treatment of the Cat (Greer Nelson) is sort of similar. Another take at a women's lib-themed superheroine, who in Avengers suddenly becomes an incompetent coward who leaves the team as a complete failure. And after the rapey incident with Graviton you alluded to, to boot.

I do wonder if this is what some people mean by getting politics out of comics, 'like it used to be in the good old days'.
Because it certainly seems like writers back in the day had some agendas as well.

[Phoenixx9]

I haven't read the story since it first came out.

I found it repulsive and abusive to say the least. I had no idea what the writers were thinking. None of the Avengers even seemed to understand or care about Carol's angst, even when she explained things. Not my Avengers and certainly not my type of writing/story. Marvel sunk low that day.

[Wiccan]

I don't buy the whole "But on that time..." bullshit. That story is gross and bizarre for any standards. Besides the not so subtle rape, there's also the fact that Carol got impregnated by her own son/gave birth to her own "lover". There's the fact that one day she got like a 9 month pregnancy belly in like a day and all the Avengers thought that was normal. There's the fact that she kept saying she didn't knew who the father was and how that happened and they still thought it was a good thing. And if Claremont was able to get outraged and write a whole rant reponse not much later, then it's not like it was some sort of consensus at the time that that story was ok and people only started seeing the problem now.

[Michael Watkins]

Wish you hadn't focused on Michelinie. This could have been a broader topic on the depiction of women/violence against women in comics. It's not like Michelinie depicted Janet Van Dyne getting beaten up; after months of emotional abuse. He certainly didn't write the only rapey story. Realistically though, villains would attempt sexual assault. They don't all have hearts of gold. How many times has Whirlwind forced himself on someone? Wrecker definitely seemed like he was going to rape that sun bathing rich girl in the Sentry arc. Hood's gang and Tigra? Any Mandrill appearance?

[Triniking1234]

It's funny because Storm fans have Claremont on trial for having Emma Frost possess Ororo and bone Shaw while in her body.

[Wiccan]

It's funny because Storm fans have Claremont on trial for having Emma Frost possess Ororo and bone Shaw while in her body.

Emma was a villain. That story didn't had the X-Men acting like what she did was ok and Emma/Storm walking into the sunset with Shaw as a happy ending.

[Punisher007]

http://jimshooter.com/2011/12/avengers-200.html/
There are some comments which include statements from Mark Gruenwald and David Michelinie and the gist of it is that the story was changed at the last second because a similar story was just told in an issue of What If.

The one thing I found of interest was the mention of feuding writers. Makes me wonder if anything like that still happens these days, or if any of them care enough.

Honestly the original idea, at least the version that I've heard about, sounded pretty terrible as well.

[TakoM]

I do wonder if this is what some people mean by getting politics out of comics, 'like it used to be in the good old days'.
Because it certainly seems like writers back in the day had some agendas as well.

Its a bit OT but what fans mean by less politic inside comics is that the heroes shouldn't getting into political decisions in-universe because also split not only the heroes into 2 different groups but also the fans.
This isn't what heroes do and as an result they only can get tainted in the process. I personally thing what you normally describe as super hero isn't bound by nations or politics but by moral which can be a tin line.

The problem is also these days is everything became politic this is because to many groups wants to form society into their ideal in a very unpragmatic and non discussable way which reflected also the "we vs them" theme in the comics.
Which remind me of this :
Its isn't a good way when you plan you new laws in your social cloud and the normal people get hit by it on the head when they her about it. Rape is certainly not a topic in which a large pro side exist in politics.

For the most part from Heroes Reborn / Return until we got Dissembled we were free from such forced plot devices in Avengers where they needed to act OOC after and before this its a complete different story. Kurt Busiek wanted at least wrap all those strange end up and Reborn gave the titles a true fresh start

[Ghostwise]

I do wonder if this is what some people mean by getting politics out of comics, 'like it used to be in the good old days'.
Because it certainly seems like writers back in the day had some agendas as well.

If memory serves, a major subplot during the issues that led Avengers #200 was that the Falcon (Sam Wilson) was stupidly forced to be an Avenger because of stupid government affirmative action lolol.

So... yeah.