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  1. #196
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Marcus IS the villain.

    I’m sorry, but just because HE doesn’t see that he raped a woman doesn’t change the fact that he did. And prior to that he kept her in limbo against her will to serve his own purposes.

    He ISNT redeemed by Carol going with him because it WASNT a choice. Marcus had removed that option.

    Look, what Marcus did isn’t any different to what a Purple Man did to Jessica Jones. He violated another persons mind and body out of expeciency and desire. His inability to see his actions as immoral is not a defence. If it were, Thanos would have the hero of the MCU.
    I recall that Claremont wrote in Avengers Annual #10 that he possessed the emotional maturity of a child and did what he did as a means to escape from limbo to Earth, so Claremont definitely didn’t mean to write that off as heroic, and that if Shooter had been more responsible and didn’t fail to maintain his duties as co-writer, I think that Shooter would have characterized the Avengers more as negatively responding back to Marcus as a villain, as opposed to being more ignorantly passive about it.

  2. #197
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    The truly stunning follow up to this debacle came years later under the pen of Bendis, where he has Carol advocate the virtues of date rape to Spider-Woman.

    Check out the first two panels of this scene, where Bendis shows that a writer’s epic failure to recognise the implications of what they are writing is not limited to the 1970s.

    Last edited by brettc1; 12-02-2019 at 02:00 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  3. #198
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The truly stunning follow up to this debacle came years later under the pen of Bendis
    I thought the follow-up came with Claremont's Avengers Annual #10?

  4. #199

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    hopefully this story has been cosmically retconned away. Maybe during the most recent Secret Wars. I don't see it currently referenced in newer stories. I don't see it revisited for any purpose.

  5. #200
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    hopefully this story has been cosmically retconned away. Maybe during the most recent Secret Wars. I don't see it currently referenced in newer stories. I don't see it revisited for any purpose.
    Because it's a huge s***stain on Marvel's legacy as a whole, especially in light of their more recent efforts to appeal to female audiences, so the further they get away from the atrocious ignorance on blatant display in the writing and plotting of Avengers #200, the better.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #201
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Because it's a huge s***stain on Marvel's legacy as a whole, especially in light of their more recent efforts to appeal to female audiences, so the further they get away from the atrocious ignorance on blatant display in the writing and plotting of Avengers #200, the better.
    As mismanaged as the story was, I don't think that to "get away" from/ignoring it completely is probably the best thing to do. It's important to remember mistakes if only for the sake of how to better learn from them as much as possible, and I think that Claremont's annual furthered that idea. Also, I think it's reasonable enough to presume that there are readers among the audience, females included, that have been in situations in which people thought to be your friends who simply don't understand a problematic situation you may be in and may make things worse despite any of their best efforts to help. As long as that's managed in a more responsible, better written manner to help back that up, then I think it would be beneficial both as an educational message and as an engaging comic.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 12-02-2019 at 05:20 PM.

  7. #202
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    As mismanaged as the story was, I don't think that to "get away" from/ignoring it completely is probably the best thing to do. It's important to remember mistakes if only for the sake of how to better learn from them as much as possible, and I think that Claremont's annual furthered that idea. Also, I think it's reasonable enough to presume that there are readers among the audience, females included, that have been in situations in which people thought to be your friends who simply don't understand a problematic situation you may be in and may make things worse despite any of their best efforts to help. As long as that's managed in a more responsible, better written manner to help back that up, then I think it would be beneficial both as an educational message and as an engaging comic.
    That's actually a decent point, though I was more referring to getting away from the atrociously ignorant mindset displayed so blatantly by how Avengers #200 was written and plotted. If the comic itself remains as a cautionary tale that people can learn from and come away more enlightened and empathetic, then that would be a good thing.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The truly stunning follow up to this debacle came years later under the pen of Bendis, where he has Carol advocate the virtues of date rape to Spider-Woman.

    Check out the first two panels of this scene, where Bendis shows that a writer’s epic failure to recognise the implications of what they are writing is not limited to the 1970s.

    They really should avoid giving powers like these to heroic characters.

  9. #204
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's actually a decent point, though I was more referring to getting away from the atrociously ignorant mindset displayed so blatantly by how Avengers #200 was written and plotted. If the comic itself remains as a cautionary tale that people can learn from and come away more enlightened and empathetic, then that would be a good thing.
    And I think it's especially important that writers learn about being more responsible in regards to whatever subject they write about, like DC writers, who seem to feature/allude to rape in DC stories somewhat frequently. I suppose I should list a number of examples now that I've mentioned that: https://web.archive.org/web/20190711...Sexual_assault

    Female victims:

    Arella was raped by the demon Trigon, leading to the conception of their daughter Raven.[1]
    Anne Pasquale was raped her freshman year in college by an unknown man who was never caught. The event caused Anne to become a cop.[2]
    Artemis Her soul ended up in Tartarus after death and there she became a figurative bride or concubine to one of the ruling Princes of Hell, Dalkriig-Hath. Diana had came to her aid, but Artemis accepted her fate. Despite being raped, beaten, and tortured at the hands of her "husband" and possibly other demons, she became accustomed to her "damnation", and adapted quickly.[3]
    Batwoman was raped by Nocturna over a period of many months due to vampiric-hypnosis, and during that time also subjected to repeated acts of emotional and psychological abuse. After Nocturna's deception was revealed by Bette, along with her intent to frame her for murder, the vampire attempted to shift all of the blame on to Kate, claiming it was what her subconscious desired all along. It didn't work.[4]
    Bleez was repeatedly raped by members of the Sinestro Corps after her home planet was overrun, which inspired her with the rage to become a member of the Red Lantern Corps.[5]
    Cellanth was kept as a sex slave by the megalomaniacal Solus.[6]
    Cinder DuBois was raped as a child by Lacey.[7]
    Cora was raped and impregnated by Dardanus and gave birth to her son Kordax.[8]
    Gypsy was raped by Baron Üman von Mauler twice, once when she was fourteen and once when she was nineteen. After the second time, she psychically battles and then kills him.[9]
    Demolitia was raped by a group of thugs after she was found under the rubble of a building.[10]
    Grace Choi ran away from her foster home and was abducted to become an underage sex slave from the ages of 9 to 12. Her abuser was a man named Tanner who held her prisoner until her powers developed.[11]
    Harriet Arkham and her daughter were both brutally raped and murdered by Martin "Mad Dog" Hawkins.[12]
    Hippolyta was drugged, chained and raped by Heracles after he simulated a truce to steal her girdle.[13]
    Judith Benoir was raped by Mathieu Arbogast and died due to injuries.[14]
    Lady Flash was raped by Vandal Savage.[15]
    Starfire was raped by members of the Citadel.[16]
    Mirage was raped and impregnated by Deathwing and gave birth to her daughter Julienne.[17][18]
    Pix was beaten and raped by a gang of street thugs.[19]
    Sue Dibny was revealed to have been brutally raped by Doctor Light during the Identity Crisis storyline.[20]
    The Huntress was kidnapped and raped by a mobster who belongs to a rival family when she was a child.[21]
    The original Silk Spectre was raped by the Comedian in Watchmen.[22]
    Windfall was drugged and passed around by members of a fraternity at her college, who posted pictures online. The local district attorney was father to one of the boys, and he refused to press charges. The school used her past career as a super-villain to justify expelling her, and she ended up on the Suicide Squad.[23]
    Melissa Dugan was sexually assaulted by Lex Luthor out of spite for attempting to end their romantic relationship.[24]

    Male victims:

    Apollo was raped by The Commander. The rape was followed by a scene of revenge in which it is implied that The Midnighter raped The Commander with a jackhammer.[25]
    Aquaman was raped by Siren who was disguised as his wife, Mera.[26]
    Batman was drugged and raped to conceive a child with Talia al Ghul which she raised in secrecy.[27] This may be a retcon of an earlier story in which their sexual encounter appeared consensual, and took place during marriage.[28]
    Birgit Eisenmann once attempted to rape Batman in the hope of creating a perfect child, although she failed because she couldn't get him to develop an erection.[29]
    Cosmic Boy: Saturn Girl tried to use her telepathic powers to bring Cosmic Boy out of a coma. It appeared that she'd succeeded, but instead she was subconsciously animating and controlling his comatose body; during this period they began dating, and Cos woke up at their wedding. This admittedly was not treated as "okay" so much as it was forgiven because Saturn Girl did it subconsciously, not on purpose.[30]
    Edward Lawton: The son of Deadshot, is implied to have been sexually assaulted prior to being killed by Wes Anselm.[31]
    Green Arrow was raped by Shado while he was delirious with fever, believing her to be his girlfriend Black Canary.[32] This lead to the birth of their son Robert Queen.
    Invisible Man was sodomized to death by Mr. Hyde in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen comics, as revenge for Griffin assault and attempted rape of Mina Murray.[33]
    John Constantine was raped by Swamp Thing and his wife Abigail when Swamp Thing possessed John's body without his consent in order to conceive their daughter.[34]
    Kyle Rayner was date-raped by Bueno Excellente, who slipped something into his drink. This is only mentioned in passing and he does not remember the incident.[35]
    Mr. Majestic was raped repeatedly by Nemesis while he was in a paralytic state.[36]
    Nightwing has been raped on multiple occasions. Mirage posed as his girlfriend Starfire to deceive him into having sex with her.[37]
    Tarantula pulled his pants down and raped him on top of a building while he was going into shock after the emotional strain of participating in Blockbuster's murder.[38]
    Starman was raped by the villainess Mist II and fathered a child.[39]
    Swamp Thing was raped by an alien entity known as Technis.[40]
    Vril Dox was raped by his L.E.G.I.O.N. teammate Stealth as part of her species' mating habits.[41] This led to the birth of their son.
    Guy Gardner (New Earth) was raped by Vuldarian Empress Karine.[42]

    1. Teen Titans (Volume 3) #8
    2. Vigilante #33
    3. Artemis: Requiem (Volume 1)
    4. Batwoman (Volume 2) #40
    5. Blackest Night: Tales of the Corps #2
    6. Swamp Thing (Volume 1) #21
    7. Cinder and Ashe #2
    8. Atlantis Chronicles #3
    9. Justice League Task Force #24
    10. Action Comics #718
    11. Outsiders (Volume 3) #17
    12. Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth
    13. Wonder Woman (Volume 2) #1
    14. Beware the Creeper (Volume 2) #5
    15. The Flash (Volume 2) #50
    16. Tales of the New Teen Titans #4
    17. Team Titans #8-10
    18. New Titans #130
    19. Batman: Gotham Knights #34
    20. Identity Crisis #2
    21. Huntress #1
    22. Watchmen #2
    23. Suicide Squad (Volume 3) #5
    24. Lex Luthor: The Unauthorized Biography #1
    25. The Authority #14
    26. Aquaman (Volume 7) #44
    27. Batman #656
    28. Batman: Son of the Demon
    29. Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #24-26
    30. Legion of Super-Heroes (Volume 4) #96
    31. Deadshot #3
    32. Green Arrow (Volume 2) #11
    33. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (Volume 2) #5
    34. Hellblazer #10
    35. JLA/Hitman #1
    36. Wildcats: World's End #23
    37. New Titans #88-90, Deathstroke the Terminator #14
    38. Nightwing (Volume 2) #93
    39. Starman (Volume 2) #12
    40. Swamp Thing (Volume 2) #60
    41. L.E.G.I.O.N. #7
    42. Hawkman (Volume 3) #23
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 12-02-2019 at 08:28 PM.

  10. #205
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    That is a lot of examples, Electricmastro. What is in the water over there?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  11. #206
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That is a lot of examples, Electricmastro. What is in the water over there?
    Quite a bit of oil I suspect. Enough to flare up a big fire which could go wrong by burning someone if even the smallest spark goes out of place.

    Of particular note is Swamp Thing (Volume 1) #21, published in 1976, which was written by Avengers #200 co-writer David Michelinie. In addition to co-writer Jim Shooter (who was a charter subscriber to New Woman Magazine, which had run a series of articles about rape, and in particular one about "Post Rape Syndrome.) using what he had read in an irresponsible manner, one may suspect that Michelinie also may have had something specifically to do with how Avengers #200 turned out, and also share more of the blame of being irresponsible, whether due to deadlines or not, as Michelinie evidently had a prior history of writing... questionably sexual interactions mixed with god complexes...

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 12-03-2019 at 04:38 PM.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That is a lot of examples, Electricmastro. What is in the water over there?
    After 30 plus years of comics, there's some amazingly bad and creepy stuff out there.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    After 30 plus years of comics, there's some amazingly bad and creepy stuff out there.
    That's a good point, I'll admit.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The truly stunning follow up to this debacle came years later under the pen of Bendis, where he has Carol advocate the virtues of date rape to Spider-Woman.
    didn't really stop there... later spider-woman tried to do it to hawkeye (remember this dude wrote jessica jones)

    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 12-03-2019 at 08:01 PM.

  15. #210
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    Honestly, I just think the nature of comics itself causes an unconscious disconnect.

    And by nature, I mean that all the characters have no tone of voice, no inflection, are 2-D drawings on paper. Regardless of creed, gender, religion or whathave you, ever comic character on some level registers as an 'It', or thing to us and to writers. There's no actor playing a role, no voice beyond what we give them in our head.

    So that, IMO, creates a certain kind of disconnect. I'm sure the Marvel list of sexual assault/crimes is just as long and in some regards, poorly considered. I remember in Fantastic Four, they had a plotline that all but said that Sharon Ventura, Ms. Marvel at the time, was gangraped.

    And from Scans Daily, I know of one horrid Wanderer story where a character who can change into an animal, has sex with a non sapient bird for the sake of the species.

    So yeah...
    Last edited by The Cool Thatguy; 12-03-2019 at 07:58 PM.

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