Rape in the Avengers and Avengers #200

[CentralPower]

I am not normally one to cry "misogyny", especially for anything more than 3 decades old.

But, in this case....yes, Avengers #200 is truly cringe-worthy. The problem is not that it was a comic written in the late 20th Century that had all the rape and incest of a Greek epic. The problem is that somebody thought it was a good idea to publish.

Yes, there is context that mitigates it. But, the context relies heavily on comic-book bullshit far more than it should considering that rape and incest are actually problems. (I respect Claremonts attempts to fix the problem. But, that is ultimately just a back-write.)

Without calling it rape, Carol absolutely expresses quite a bit of the language of someone who has been raped.

Was "rape" a word they could have used in a comic at that point? (Not the idea or implication, but the specific word.)

I think you are spot on that Shooter was aiming at a science fiction paradox story and forced the issue to the detriment of the characters, all in service of his 'cool idea'.

He really should have known better. Rape and incest are aft-brain crimes. But, they are also socially defined. Even if Shooter's aft-brain did not scream in revulsion, he socialized fore-brain should have made the save.

The one thing I found of interest was the mention of feuding writers. Makes me wonder if anything like that still happens these days, or if any of them care enough.

There was a similar question about Doom and Sue Storm in the 2015 "Secret Wars". But, that was more a question of writers and editors not getting the same memo. (At least one actually changed his "official" answer about a plot point, implying that he or somebody else made a mistake.)

Wrecker definitely seemed like he was going to rape that sun bathing rich girl in the Sentry arc. Hood's gang and Tigra? Any Mandrill appearance?

The difference is that in those cases, the bad guy rapist is identified as a bad guy. The heroes are not shrugging it off. More importantly, there are no mental gymnastics required to make it okay.

. Marvel sunk low that day.

Yeah, I mean, DC never did anything like that. I mean, can you imagine if they published a run where one of their heroes (maybe a space cop or something) totally banged a 14 year old girl, but it was okay because she was an alien, he thought she was legal and they were wearing magic space rings? That would be so messed up if it happened.

Or, hey, how about that time Mockingbird was drugged and raped by a cowboy, and Hawkeye's reaction was "get your hands off my girl" (as in "step away from my car, punk").

[Mike_Murdock]

Wish you hadn't focused on Michelinie. This could have been a broader topic on the depiction of women/violence against women in comics. It's not like Michelinie depicted Janet Van Dyne getting beaten up; after months of emotional abuse. He certainly didn't write the only rapey story. Realistically though, villains would attempt sexual assault. They don't all have hearts of gold. How many times has Whirlwind forced himself on someone? Wrecker definitely seemed like he was going to rape that sun bathing rich girl in the Sentry arc. Hood's gang and Tigra? Any Mandrill appearance?

Honestly, my intent was to focus on Jim Shooter. Having read the Korvac Saga and Secret Wars II, my assumption going in was that he deserved 100% of the blame. It wasn't until I got to the Creel story that I reevaluated my opinion.

I think the biggest issue isn't that someone is rapey (although it's a consistent theme of Shooter's stories when someone acquires ultimate power), it's the idea of "oh, maybe that rapist wasn't so bad," which is absolutely true for the stories of Korvac, Creel, and Marcus.

[Mackandal]

Its a bit OT but what fans mean by less politic inside comics is that the heroes shouldn't getting into political decisions in-universe because also split not only the heroes into 2 different groups but also the fans.
This isn't what heroes do and as an result they only can get tainted in the process. I personally thing what you normally describe as super hero isn't bound by nations or politics but by moral which can be a tin line.

The problem is also these days is everything became politic this is because to many groups wants to form society into their ideal in a very unpragmatic and non discussable way which reflected also the "we vs them" theme in the comics.

Politics is morality. Maybe politics is "just a game" for you because you're well off regardless of who "wins", but for the other 90% of us, we need to get political, because some people at best don't care if we die and at worst actively want to kill us. I can't buy characters as heroes if they don't stand up for the little guy.

Its isn't a good way when you plan you new laws in your social cloud and the normal people get hit by it on the head when they her about it. Rape is certainly not a topic in which a large pro side exist in politics.

HAHAHAHAHA- I'm sorry, have you been living in a cave? Rape most definitely has a large group of apologists.

[davew128]

I think the biggest issue isn't that someone is rapey (although it's a consistent theme of Shooter's stories when someone acquires ultimate power), it's the idea of "oh, maybe that rapist wasn't so bad," which is absolutely true for the stories of Korvac, Creel, and Marcus.

I haven't read the books in question in some time, and barely even remember the Absorbing Man story, but IIRC in the case of Korvac I never and still don't get the impression he did anything wrong with Carina. I'd have to go back and look but I always remembered it as her being an immortal cosmic being like her father, and she simply fell in love with the man she was sent to spy on, even after he killed Collector.

It wasn't until their relatively recent appearance where she was hiding from him and he acted like a whacked out stalker, that something seemed wrong, and my reaction was, why does her reaction to him now not jibe with what we saw in Korvac Saga? I get the characterization but I haven't made the connection as to why.

Marcus on the other hand, just felt wrong to me, but I was too young to pick up on behavioral subtleties and understand things beyond the ick, you @($&ed your mother thing.

[Triniking1234]

How does the Korvac Saga go in the comics? I've only seen Avengers:EMH version of Korvac where the only reason he made it back to Earth after he got powers was because he remembered his girlfriend and he left due to getting rejected. The cartoon also never implies that the girlfriend was a cosmic character in disguise either.

[Carabas]

Its isn't a good way when you plan you new laws in your social cloud and the normal people get hit by it on the head when they her about it. Rape is certainly not a topic in which a large pro side exist in politics.

I can see you have not been following American politics lately.

[Huntsman Spider]

Politics is morality. Maybe politics is "just a game" for you because you're well off regardless of who "wins", but for the other 90% of us, we need to get political, because some people at best don't care if we die and at worst actively want to kill us. I can't buy characters as heroes if they don't stand up for the little guy.

HAHAHAHAHA- I'm sorry, have you been living in a cave? Rape most definitely has a large group of apologists.

That's actually a pretty good overarching point. Superhero comics are ultimately super-powered morality plays in graphic format, and politics, like it or not, isn't a mere game, but a vital matter of principles and interests, often clashing or conflicting, that determines even basic stuff like who gets fed and clothed and sheltered and otherwise protected from undue harm by the laws that govern a nation. Almost every major superhero comic has a strong moral theme or message embedded somewhere in its concept or history that can be just as applicable to politics as anything else.

Sticking to Marvel, Spider-Man says that with great power there must also come great responsibility, meaning that those with power or with certain other gifts or advantages have a moral obligation to use them to help others whenever and wherever possible. Captain America has said in more modern stories that being loyal to your country doesn't mean you tolerate or accept injustice or immorality committed by your country or in your country's name. The X-Men's whole message is that bigotry and prejudice are wrong and making laws based purely on fear of the other and the unknown will ultimately backfire and make everyone less safe, less free, and less happy in the long run, while also warning that those fighting against bigotry and prejudice must overcome their own bigotry and prejudice and not lump in all members of a dominant group/culture with those that seek to repress them.

Iron Man and the Hulk could both be argued as lessons about the dangers of the military-industrial complex in differing ways. Hulk presents the lesson as said complex creating a weapon that refuses to be controlled and causes a lot more suffering for everyone involved than if the constant pursuit of military supremacy wasn't such a dominating focus over other, arguably more vital human concerns and needs. On the flipside of that coin, Iron Man presents the lesson as blowback from the protagonist not caring enough about who was getting their hands on the weapons being unleashed on the world so long as building and selling those weapons was making the protagonist rich.

Just a few examples off the top of my head, but I definitely see your point.

[davew128]

How does the Korvac Saga go in the comics? I've only seen Avengers:EMH version of Korvac where the only reason he made it back to Earth after he got powers was because he remembered his girlfriend and he left due to getting rejected. The cartoon also never implies that the girlfriend was a cosmic character in disguise either.

Carina was the Collector's daughter. He had foreseen some threats to the universe popping up in the near future (Korvac and Thanos) and he sent Carina to spy on Korvac and seduce him in the form of an Earth woman (because fundamentally Korvac was originally human) but she ended up falling in love with him. There was nothing shown or implied on panel that he did anything other than share his power with her, which given that she was an Elder of the Universe wouldn't have affected her like it might an ordinary human.

[Anthony Shaw]

Since we are talking rape in Avengers' comics....where Shooter was part of the creative process....how about Moondragon & Thor (not to mention patricide)?

[Mike_Murdock]

I haven't read the books in question in some time, and barely even remember the Absorbing Man story, but IIRC in the case of Korvac I never and still don't get the impression he did anything wrong with Carina. I'd have to go back and look but I always remembered it as her being an immortal cosmic being like her father, and she simply fell in love with the man she was sent to spy on, even after he killed Collector.

Please re-read the last couple pages of #167 and tell me that she isn't being mind-controlled. She instantly falls in love with him the very second she sees him. These are the pages I'm talking about, although I couldn't find a good way to include the info at the right size, so it's a touch small:

[Drops Of Venus]

Another one to the list: the almost rape of Bruce Banner by two gay guys in a shower. That was not only edited, but WRITTEN by Shooter. Honestly, it does seem he felt those stories had some kind of appeal back then.

[davew128]

Please re-read the last couple pages of #167 and tell me that she isn't being mind-controlled. She instantly falls in love with him the very second she sees him. These are the pages I'm talking about, although I couldn't find a good way to include the info at the right size, so it's a touch small:

Carina was a cosmic powered Elder of the Universe. Korvac knew that. I seriously doubt he mind controlled her. It IS possible for someone to fall in love at first sight, I know I have. More directly, I see telepathic communication but no coercion. I totally get what you're saying, but that scene isn't really conclusive to me. It seemed to me more that Collector underestimated the allure Carina would feel in being human that in trying to pretend to love Korvac actually did fall in love with him. IIRC that was a common theme for Sci-Fi in that era going all the way back to Star Trek.

[JKtheMac]

I don't buy the whole "But on that time..." bullshit.

Perhaps because you perceive it as an apology. When I refer to the prevailing culture I am not apologising for that culture, nor suggesting it was OK at the time, just that pointing fingers at individuals is a little arbitrary and somewhat pointless. When the context is lost the problematic issues become larger. I read much worse than this in magazines of that era for example, and people would express the same sentiments unapologetically in casual conversation.

The argument is that this story is sadly representative of some prevailing attitudes and although those attitudes were atrocious they were not unusual. When asking 'how did this story get nodded through' that context is relevant. It got through because it didn't stand out as clearly as when we read it out of context.

And none of this is to say similar things don't happen today.

[Mike_Murdock]

I don't buy the whole "But on that time..." bullshit. That story is gross and bizarre for any standards. Besides the not so subtle rape, there's also the fact that Carol got impregnated by her own son/gave birth to her own "lover". There's the fact that one day she got like a 9 month pregnancy belly in like a day and all the Avengers thought that was normal. There's the fact that she kept saying she didn't knew who the father was and how that happened and they still thought it was a good thing. And if Claremont was able to get outraged and write a whole rant reponse not much later, then it's not like it was some sort of consensus at the time that that story was ok and people only started seeing the problem now.

The "it was the times" defense can't even plausibly apply here. Part of the reason for that is it provoked an immediate response, most famously with Carol Strickland's essay, The Rape of Ms. Marvel," but also only a year later with Avengers Annual 10. This isn't something that looked bad in retrospect. Many people recognized it right away.

[TakoM]

That's actually a pretty good overarching point. Superhero comics are ultimately super-powered morality plays in graphic format, and politics, like it or not, isn't a mere game, but a vital matter of principles and interests, often clashing or conflicting, that determines even basic stuff like who gets fed and clothed and sheltered and otherwise protected from undue harm by the laws that govern a nation. Almost every major superhero comic has a strong moral theme or message embedded somewhere in its concept or history that can be just as applicable to politics as anything else.

Sticking to Marvel, Spider-Man says that with great power there must also come great responsibility, meaning that those with power or with certain other gifts or advantages have a moral obligation to use them to help others whenever and wherever possible. Captain America has said in more modern stories that being loyal to your country doesn't mean you tolerate or accept injustice or immorality committed by your country or in your country's name. The X-Men's whole message is that bigotry and prejudice are wrong and making laws based purely on fear of the other and the unknown will ultimately backfire and make everyone less safe, less free, and less happy in the long run, while also warning that those fighting against bigotry and prejudice must overcome their own bigotry and prejudice and not lump in all members of a dominant group/culture with those that seek to repress them.

Iron Man and the Hulk could both be argued as lessons about the dangers of the military-industrial complex in differing ways. Hulk presents the lesson as said complex creating a weapon that refuses to be controlled and causes a lot more suffering for everyone involved than if the constant pursuit of military supremacy wasn't such a dominating focus over other, arguably more vital human concerns and needs. On the flipside of that coin, Iron Man presents the lesson as blowback from the protagonist not caring enough about who was getting their hands on the weapons being unleashed on the world so long as building and selling those weapons was making the protagonist rich.

Just a few examples off the top of my head, but I definitely see your point.

I didn't replayed to his post because it was to trollig I didn't said politic is bad or evil nor did I say I have anything against some morals I did say morals and ideals are what drives politic in its core. What I also mean is that what concerns me are the extremes like in the video showed. It is just from my view as a non US citizen that politic is really quick with a ban of some stuff is it New Year's Eve lead sets or some chemical which isn't in your food (Glyphosat) or the phosphate in your doner which were in there over 20 years without any sign being dangerous.

Those are all valid points about health care but there are a line of people who wants more and everyone has a idea what to ban next and each of them sending S.O.S signals to the media and say :'if we don't do this the world will go.. blabla' means they appeal to the fear of the masses and on the other hand we companies who got more and more freedom.

I personally think people should decide for them selves where they can and ideals taken to the extreme are always toxic and people needs to make compromises sometimes to some degree for the better of society but also because reality is so.
Last part was really missing in CW1. I also think influencing society from top down had become much harder since the start of the 21 centaury I would say it became nearly impossible because of this I think more democracy is nessary(but not the crazy amount)