Rape in the Avengers and Avengers #200

[ed2962]

Carina was a cosmic powered Elder of the Universe. Korvac knew that. I seriously doubt he mind controlled her. It IS possible for someone to fall in love at first sight, I know I have. More directly, I see telepathic communication but no coercion. I totally get what you're saying, but that scene isn't really conclusive to me. It seemed to me more that Collector underestimated the allure Carina would feel in being human that in trying to pretend to love Korvac actually did fall in love with him. IIRC that was a common theme for Sci-Fi in that era going all the way back to Star Trek.

I sorta agree. I don't really think of that scene as mind control.

[ed2962]

Ugh god, soaps are such garbage. There are likely things like that in so-called romance novels too. Vomit worthy.

It's not just soap operas. There's a number of films from that era that either minimized rape or even in some cases the subject ended up enjoying the act.

[ed2962]

There's an issue of Kazar where Kazar was coerced into having sex with a female villain. And while Kazar clearly emotionally damaged by the incident, the villain taunts him by saying something like, "Oh get over it, it wasn't that bad!"

[Michael Watkins]

remember when Lindee (sp?) Reynolds was a prisoner at Avengers Tower? wtf was that about?

[Agent Z]

Another one to the list: the almost rape of Bruce Banner by two gay guys in a shower. That was not only edited, but WRITTEN by Shooter. Honestly, it does seem he felt those stories had some kind of appeal back then.

I think someone once mentioned these were the first gay characters to ever appear in a Marvel comic.

[Witchfan]

In the Wundagore Nights story, do you think that Modred the Mystic raped Scarlet Witch off-panel at some point?

[Colossus1980]

Mark Waid wrote a recent story where Purple Man had a bunch of kids from all the rapes he committed in the Daredevil title. I don't know why no heroes have kicked the **** out of him for being a serial rapist. DD should do some major damage to him since he's the only one who saw the evidence of all his multiple rapes.

[Punisher007]

Mark Waid wrote a recent story where Purple Man had a bunch of kids from all the rapes he committed in the Daredevil title. I don't know why no heroes have kicked the **** out of him for being a serial rapist. DD should do some major damage to him since he's the only one who saw the evidence of all his multiple rapes.

Someone (it might have been Bendis but I'm not sure) wrote an issue where Purple Man was bragging to Luke Cage (thinking that Luke was under his control). Only to then have Luke reveal that his powers weren't working right then, and proceed to beat the crap out of PM.

[Drops Of Venus]

I think someone once mentioned these were the first gay characters to ever appear in a Marvel comic.

Yeah, it was probably the first time Shooter made an exception for his ''no gays allowed'' rule, just so he could do us the favor of portraying them as sexual predators and deviants. How nice of him.

[JKtheMac]

The "it was the times" defense can't even plausibly apply here.

I refer you to my previous answer. Stating it was of the time is not supposed to be a defence, it is supposed to provide context. As far as I can tell this story was universally condemned when people pointed out the problems, but let's be honest it was not universally recognised as a problem without reference to those that did recognise it. And some of the responses are reactionary. They tend to remove the context and examine the problems under a microscope, which is not particularly helpful when studying cultural issues. It becomes a form of scapegoating.

You yourself have noted this is not a unique story in this run, but history tends to point at this instance in a way that obscures the context and thereby lets lots of other problematic issues in comic books off the hook. And in a modern context it can be used to point at the past as a way of avoiding problems today.

I think we both know I could begin to list current Marvel comics and certain much loved elements of established and unreconstructed canon and totally derail this thread. The apologists would jump to the defence of their beloved characters and creatives and the status quo of comic books, and seek to differentiate this issue from current issues.

Even the desire to retcon this story or more accurately establish it in a new context that seeks to condemn characters instead of creatives, is a problem in comic culture. It could be argued Claremont made it worse not better. Blame is not the most helpful response in this situation, education is.

[JKtheMac]

There's an issue of Kazar where Kazar was coerced into having sex with a female villain. And while Kazar clearly emotionally damaged by the incident, the villain taunts him by saying something like, "Oh get over it, it wasn't that bad!"

That's interesting do you have a reference?

[Colossus1980]

Someone (it might have been Bendis but I'm not sure) wrote an issue where Purple Man was bragging to Luke Cage (thinking that Luke was under his control). Only to then have Luke reveal that his powers weren't working right then, and proceed to beat the crap out of PM.

I remember that issue. I think it was the New Avengers and it was on the Raft(?).

But what I want to see is someone kick the living hell out of Purple Man because of all his serial raping. I want a superhero to call him out for the women he's assaulted over the decades. Preferably it's either Jessica Jones, Captain Marvel, or the She-Hulk.

[JKtheMac]

I remember that issue. I think it was the New Avengers and it was on the Raft(?).

But what I want to see is someone kick the living hell out of Purple Man because of all his serial raping. I want a superhero to call him out for the women he's assaulted over the decades. Preferably it's either Jessica Jones, Captain Marvel, or the She-Hulk.

Don't you think this would be a pretty terrible story? That it would effectively turn a story about a sexual predator into a story about machismo vigilantism, regardless of who does the punching? How is beating up a rapist a solution?

[Punisher007]

^Because it's superhero comics. "Beating up the bad people for doing bad things" is a rather engrained part of the genre and always has been. So why would rapists be any different in that regard?

Also it sends a "if you do bad things, then you will be punished" message, which is pretty important (not to mention cathartic). Jessica finally getting true payback on PM for the crap that he did to here, well I venture to say that probably 99% of the readers would LOVE that!

[JKtheMac]

^Because it's superhero comics. "Beating up the bad people for doing bad things" is a rather engrained part of the genre and always has been. So why would rapists be any different in that regard?

Why indeed. And that question would make for a better story don't you think?

Also it sends a "if you do bad things, then you will be punished" message, which is pretty important (not to mention cathartic).

Again the cathartic impulse of action stories is not a good match for a story about a sexual predator IMO. See for example the TV version of Jessica Jones. That story questions these things, even with its ending we don't necessarily get catharsis. That is deliberate.

Jessica finally getting true payback on PM for the crap that he did to here, well I venture to say that probably 99% of the readers would LOVE that!

Maybe they would, but 90% of comic book writers wouldn't be interested in an unreconstructed revenge story in this context.