Rape in the Avengers and Avengers #200

[Drops Of Venus]

1) Shooter did not have a "no gays rule", the Comics Code did.

That's not what John Byrne says.

[Carabas]

That's not what John Byrne says.

what does John Byrne say?

[Drops Of Venus]

what does John Byrne say?

https://www.themarysue.com/lgbt-hist...comics-part-1/

Byrne initially declined to say if anything beyond the Code prevented Northstar from coming out, he admitted in recent years that he was also hampered by Jim Shooter, Editor-in-Chief at Marvel from 1978 to 1987. In 2013, Byrne said, “Shooter forbade any overt mention of Northstar’s homosexuality” (thank you to JohnByrneSays for pointing this out). Even before Byrne made this admission, it had been reported for years from different sources that during his time as EIC, Shooter decreed there were “no gays in the Marvel Universe.”

[Michael Watkins]

Oh yeah. Cain brought back Phantom Rider to creep on Bobbi because it was a good idea.

/s

I haven't read the story. Maybe Cain felt it was better for Bobbi to be more than a victim. :shrugs:

[Michael Watkins]

I think someone once mentioned these were the first gay characters to ever appear in a Marvel comic.

Before that dude, skip, who tried to molest Peter Parker?

[Anduinel]

https://www.themarysue.com/lgbt-hist...comics-part-1/

There are conflicting stories around that. Bill Mantlo made similar claims regarding his time writing Alpha Flight, while Carl Potts, his editor at the time, has disputed that anyone was told they couldn't say Northstar was gay. Obviously, I give that some side-eye, because if that's the case, then why didn't they instead of dropping barely-veiled hints?

[Michael Watkins]

In the Wundagore Nights story, do you think that Modred the Mystic raped Scarlet Witch off-panel at some point?

I'm still of the opinion that Modred is she and Pietro's father.

[Drops Of Venus]

I haven't read the story. Maybe Cain felt it was better for Bobbi to be more than a victim. :shrugs:

Yeah, that's exactly what she was going for. I can't say I feel happy about how the retcon turned Bobbi into a cheater, BUT I understand where the writer was coming from. I don't think she realized the can of worms she was about to open with that story, but I can tell her intention was to give Bobbi her agency back, and that wasn't something that was necessarily bad. I think it made sense for the story she was telling since the beginning and how the book was being promoted.

There are conflicting stories around that. Bill Mantlo made similar claims regarding his time writing Alpha Flight, while Carl Potts, his editor at the time, has disputed that anyone was told they couldn't say Northstar was gay. Obviously, I give that some side-eye, because if that's the case, then why didn't they instead of dropping barely-veiled hints?

Nothing against Carl Potts, but yeah, I'm more inclined to believe the writers on this one.

[cranger]

https://www.themarysue.com/lgbt-hist...comics-part-1/

So, Shooter did not say Northstar could not be gay, just that Byrne could not explicitly say so in the comics. Why? Because there was a stupid CCA that they were worried about keeping on the covers so parents would let their kids buy them, and Shooter's job was to make sure the writers followed it. Byrne just likes to whine about Shooter.

If Shooter had his own personal no gays rule, Byrne would not have been getting away with telling everyone Northstar was and implying it as best he could in the pages.

Anyway, I don't remember Byrne creating any gay superheroes when he jumped over to DC.

[CentralPower]

Intrestingly enough,both stories were written by the same guy, someone who probably irked more thaan a few people when he decided to make a Vietnamese prostitute the "Celestial Madonna".

That was Mantlo or Shooter? Either way....oi gevault.

remember when Lindee (sp?) Reynolds was a prisoner at Avengers Tower? wtf was that about?

That was not the good guys keeping her prisoners. Nobody on page acted like it was okay, aside from characters that a sensible person would know were not meant to be admirable.

Yeah, it was probably the first time Shooter made an exception for his ''no gays allowed'' rule, just so he could do us the favor of portraying them as sexual predators and deviants. How nice of him.

At this point, I am just glad that I am not a fan of Shooter.

You yourself have noted this is not a unique story in this run, but history tends to point at this instance in a way that obscures the context and thereby lets lots of other problematic issues in comic books off the hook. And in a modern context it can be used to point at the past as a way of avoiding problems today.

A lot of the examples in this thread seem to trace back to Shooter though.

^Because it's superhero comics. "Beating up the bad people for doing bad things" is a rather engrained part of the genre and always has been. So why would rapists be any different in that regard?

Or, in a more real sense, why should we have mercy for monsters?

Cause it is rather depressing. Also didn't Killgrave just became a rapist of Alias?

Who cares if it was depressing if it was well-written?

[Punisher007]

[QUOTE=Drops Of Venus;3366682]Yeah, that's exactly what she was going for. I can't say I feel happy about how the retcon turned Bobbi into a cheater, BUT I understand where the writer was coming from. I don't think she realized the can of worms she was about to open with that story, but I can tell her intention was to give Bobbi her agency back, and that wasn't something that was necessarily bad. I think it made sense for the story she was telling since the beginning and how the book was being promoted.

It made no sense given that it goes against pretty much every bit of continuity that there's been since then. Also I take issue that this "gives Bobbi here agency back." While I do agree that "rape as character motivation" for female characters is majorly overused in comics, this is one of the few cases where they handled the aftermath WELL!! And she did grow as a result, it was a good story about overcoming such horror.

I don't see how turning her into the villain of the story basically somehow "gives her her agency back." I just think that that's a problematic take on it as well. Also if you're going to make such a massive retcon that affects pretty so much of her history, you don't just do it in like one page offhandedly.

[gurkle]

During the Shooter era there was at least one comic with a sympathetic gay character - Arnie in J.M. DeMatteis's Captain America. That doesn't disprove Byrne's story about Northstar because allowing a superhero to be portrayed as gay was probably considered much more risky than for a superhero to have a gay civilian friend.

[Michael Watkins]

That was not the good guys keeping her prisoners. Nobody on page acted like it was okay, aside from characters that a sensible person would know were not meant to be admirable.

in fairness, I tried to avoid as much of Bendis Avengers as I could. but Lindee lived in the Watchtower prior to Osborn "inheriting" it. I vividly remember her being murdered by Ultron (way to drop the ball guys) and resurrected by the Sentry. and she was shown to be fearful of him. did any of the Avengers maybe do a welfare check on Lindee? we weren't shown her being kept prisoner. but she was at Avengers Tower to keep an unbelievably powerful and equally crazy Sentry on an even keel. can you say for certain that Iron Man wasn't just looking the other way, in this situation? they did unearth him from a prison; disheveled and wide eyed. they did involve Lindee. personally, I see this as an example of them not learning from the very recent lesson of Disassembled.

[Michael Watkins]

It made no sense given that it goes against pretty much every bit of continuity that there's been since then. Also I take issue that this "gives Bobbi here agency back." While I do agree that "rape as character motivation" for female characters is majorly overused in comics, this is one of the few cases where they handled the aftermath WELL!!

the aftermath was the breakup of she and Clint's relationship. if nothing else, it made Clint look like a real heel. so I wouldn't say that it was handled well. that would be a stretch.

[teepee]

Let's not forget Moondragon raping Thor not long after. I think it was pretty much a thing that male teenage scifi geeks liked to read about at that time. Google the Gor books if you don't believe that.

1107031-moondragonthor3.jpg