Rape in the Avengers and Avengers #200

[CentralPower]

More than that, when Bobbi killed Phantom Rider, it's worth noting that she had no tactical justification. She had backup, she had overpowered him, and he was beaten.

So that's another mark against Bobbi. Clint had reason to be mad, all things considered.

Putting aside the stupid back-write (of Mockingbird cheating), how is that a mark against Mockingbird? The guy attacked her. Not sure that she was the bad guy.

The back-write muddies things a bit, which is why I am saying to put it aside for the moment.

No idea how that is an answer to what I said. The context of this thread is that time period. And my main issue with the tread is the lack of understanding and context about that period of history.

"It was the time" only carried so far, and is giving too much of a pass to a "romantic rapist".

[teepee]

Kind of a cheat. Does Raven, technically, have a gender? She certainly lived as a man, during part of their relationship.

So she's trans gender too? Claremont really was ahead of his time (apart from the Storm/Shaw thing. Oh and the Jean Grey/Mastermind thing. And the Mesmero/Jean Grey thing. And ..oh never mind.)

[CentralPower]

In fairness to Claremont, none of the examples of above normalized sexual assault. Every example was a known bad guy doing something that everybody agreed was bad....unlike the Avengers shrugging off incest and rape in their own mansion.

In other words, Claremont never said that it was okay. Shooter, on the other hand, did not have any apparent problem with it.

[Mike_Murdock]

On a side note: I've said this before but back then I seldom was a fan of a Steve Englehart book. He is the reason why a lot of readers think Crystal is a tramp because he has her cheating on Pietro with some salesman. Then later when Englehart is writing the FF, he has her join the FF just to help make Johnny feel uncomfortable (he had just married Alicia). Long time CBR columnist Brian Cronin did a whole piece about how Englehart would turn Pietro into a crazy supervillain

Full disclosure, I'm actually a big fan of Englehart. I disagree with your interpretation of the FF. I think the person who looked bad there was Ben, not Crystal. I thought Crystal was as uncomfortable with the whole situation as Johnny.

[Ken Ashcroft]

Bobbi actually pointed Clint's hyprocrsy when he was planning to kill Norman Osborn during Dark Reign. and then it was revealed he later slept wth a Wanda-Bot

Wasn't it reconned later on in another book as being a Wanda bot because of the complaints that Marvel received about Barton sleeping with Wanda when she was said to be in a confused state with no memory of who she was? That Barton took advantage of this situation even though he had been rejected by Wanda in the past and he knew she wouldn't have slept with him if she was herself with full recollection of who she was and of her past?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Putting aside the stupid back-write (of Mockingbird cheating), how is that a mark against Mockingbird? The guy attacked her. Not sure that she was the bad guy.

The back-write muddies things a bit, which is why I am saying to put it aside for the moment.

He was hanging off a cliff, and Mockingbird had allies inbound. So the use of lethal force (well, allowing him to die) isn't justified.

[The Cool Thatguy]

On a side note: I've said this before but back then I seldom was a fan of a Steve Englehart book. He is the reason why a lot of readers think Crystal is a tramp because he has her cheating on Pietro with some salesman. Then later when Englehart is writing the FF, he has her join the FF just to help make Johnny feel uncomfortable (he had just married Alicia). Long time CBR columnist Brian Cronin did a whole piece about how Englehart would turn Pietro into a crazy supervillain

He also did a time travel story in his Doctor Strange run where Clea cheated on Stephen and slept with Ben Franklin. It was fixed by another writer in a later issue. And yes, he also did that story in SVTU where Doom attempts to invoke the droit du seigneur with a young Latverian woman.

Another thing I didn't care for is his FF story where Sharon Ventura mutated into the She Thing. I can't think of much about his writing that I like.

IIRC, he also wrote the story that 'hinted' (all but said given the times) that Sharon Ventura was raped while she was a prisoner of the Power Broker. In one scene, she nearly allowed Johnny Storm to die because she couldn't stand the touch of a man.

...classy.

[Mike_Murdock]

^ For some reason I thought a different writer had the story about Sharon being raped and Englehart simply explored the aftermath (doesn't mean he wasn't responsible for the other story, though).

Wasn't it reconned later on in another book as being a Wanda bot because of the complaints that Marvel received about Barton sleeping with Wanda when she was said to be in a confused state with no memory of who she was?

I saw that before, but I couldn't find the source for it. I'd love to know more information.

[The Cool Thatguy]

^ For some reason I thought a different writer had the story about Sharon being raped and Englehart simply explored the aftermath (doesn't mean he wasn't responsible for the other story, though).

In fairness I may be misremembering. But it does seem like his pace, all things considered

[CentralPower]

He was hanging off a cliff, and Mockingbird had allies inbound. So the use of lethal force (well, allowing him to die) isn't justified.

All things considered, it really is not that bad.

[The Cool Thatguy]

All things considered, it really is not that bad.

In comics? Perhaps. But Bobbi was an Avenger at the time, supposed to be one of the best of the best, and uphold a certain standard.

These days, killing is what, a two issue subplot?

[Mike_Murdock]

In fairness I may be misremembering. But it does seem like his pace, all things considered

Just doublechecked. It was Mark Gruenwald in Captain America 330-331.

Of course, the treatment of Sharon is even more dubious by the fact that she was Ms. Marvel at the time.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Just doublechecked. It was Mark Gruenwald in Captain America 330-331.

Of course, the treatment of Sharon is even more dubious by the fact that she was Ms. Marvel at the time.

Did he write her being captured? Or was he the one who insinuated the rape?

...ugh, feel dirty just asking.

[Michael Watkins]

Wasn't it reconned later on in another book as being a Wanda bot because of the complaints that Marvel received about Barton sleeping with Wanda when she was said to be in a confused state with no memory of who she was? That Barton took advantage of this situation even though he had been rejected by Wanda in the past and he knew she wouldn't have slept with him if she was herself with full recollection of who she was and of her past?

so that retcon saves Wanda. but Clint is still made out to be a real creeper. why would Doctor Doom have left a Wanda sexbot, there?

[Mike_Murdock]

I don't know the details, sorry. It's fairly secondhand for me. I just know the aftermath is explored in Fantastic Four.