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  1. #1
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    Default Detective Comics #972 Preview / Discussion (Spoilers)

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    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Weird that this cover got swapped from #973. And #971's variant cover hinted at Mr. Freeze tech, but that's only coming into play now.
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    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    I'm really disappointed that Tynion is reverting Clayface back to being a villain again. When his run started, it was a breath of fresh air to see a writer bring a reformed villain on the team.

    This book went from being awesome with the original lineup to now still being very good, but Clayface looks to be out, Tim is acting weird and not himself. I also don't like the addition of Azrael to the team. They had a nice, small group of characters that really bonded. Now it's all getting shook up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    I'm really disappointed that Tynion is reverting Clayface back to being a villain again. When his run started, it was a breath of fresh air to see a writer bring a reformed villain on the team.
    I'm hopeful that Batman is right, and Clayface is just lashing out. Reforming a villain can be a few steps forwards, a few steps back - and if he is sliding due to guilt that is more likely to be overcome than if he was sliding due to something more sinister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    I'm really disappointed that Tynion is reverting Clayface back to being a villain again. When his run started, it was a breath of fresh air to see a writer bring a reformed villain on the team.
    As if the handling of the (seeming) end of Basil's excellent story getting poorly handled wasn't bad enough, it also plays into something I was talking about on the YJ thread earlier: Villains never being able to change no matter how much they want to seems to be a central theme of the DCU (and the MU as well as Frontier pointed out, although at least SOME of their villains have managed to stay heroes) and I think that's pretty horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    This book went from being awesome with the original lineup to now still being very good
    In its current state, this book is a dumpster fire IMO. That said, I do additionally disagree with the sentiment. Looking at the four arcs from before the book fell apart, the one arc that had the full original roster was good, but was an awful way to begin the series and the second arc, where it still felt like the OG team, while not bad, was still the weakest of the four. The next two arcs felt very different from the first two and as a whole, I preferred them. LoS was a mess that wasted a LOT of time and ended horribly, but when it was actually focusing on its protagonist, it was some of the series' best material, while Intelligence is the best arc overall, all of its problems surmisable in three words: Too much Zatanna.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Clayface looks to be out
    On top of 1) Basil could have been an amazing long term addition to the Family, 2) This finale is to his arc is being completely botched and 3) Yet another case of DC saying villains can't change their ways, there's also 4) He was one of the only good things this book still had going for it! If he's gone, we're pretty much just down to Cass (assuming King's 'reason' she's not in any futures doesn't end up f**king her over), the solid way Bruce is written and the very occasional nice bromance moment with the wallpaper duo.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    I also don't like the addition of Azrael to the team.
    I obviously disagree since I love JPV, but even just as far as how the characters are written in this book, with Basil gone, I think he's the third best and only behind Bruce because of how rarely he gets to do anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post

    They had a nice, small group of characters that really bonded.
    Well that sounds wonderful, what book were you reading?

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    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    2) This finale is to his arc is being completely botched
    How? It's been foreshadowed for almost thirty issues now (at least) that what's happening to him was just a matter of time.
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    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    I'm really disappointed that Tynion is reverting Clayface back to being a villain again. When his run started, it was a breath of fresh air to see a writer bring a reformed villain on the team.
    I knew it was inevitable, so I was just glad to see Tynion breathe some new life into Clayface as a character before Basil was forced to become the monster again.

    He really brought the sense of tragedy and horror back to Clayface, even if this plot development is a tad clunky.

    It reminds me a bit of Telltale Games' take on Harvey Dent/Two-Face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    In its current state, this book is a dumpster fire IMO. That said, I do additionally disagree with the sentiment. Looking at the four arcs from before the book fell apart, the one arc that had the full original roster was good, but was an awful way to begin the series and the second arc, where it still felt like the OG team, while not bad, was still the weakest of the four. The next two arcs felt very different from the first two and as a whole, I preferred them. LoS was a mess that wasted a LOT of time and ended horribly, but when it was actually focusing on its protagonist, it was some of the series' best material, while Intelligence is the best arc overall, all of its problems surmisable in three words: Too much Zatanna.
    That was probably my favorite part of the arc, so I can't say I minded (even if I felt bad for poor JPV) .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    How? It's been foreshadowed for almost thirty issues now (at least) that what's happening to him was just a matter of time.
    Just because something was built up well doesn't automatically make the pay off satisfying or well written. This isn't something that happens rarely in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    That was probably my favorite part of the arc, so I can't say I minded (even if I felt bad for poor JPV) .
    Regardless of which parts one enjoyed more, I think it's pretty clear that, as Tynion's one to do, he tried to cram way more into the arc than there was room for. The reason it sticks out as the biggest flaw in this one is because unlike, say, League of Shadows where a lot of the material outside the central plot wasn't very good to begin with, here, if the JPV stuff had been kept on its own and then Zee got a two-parter afterword, I'd probably consider both legitimately great.

  9. #9
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Just because something was built up well doesn't automatically make the pay off satisfying or well written. This isn't something that happens rarely in fiction.
    I've seen worse written returns to villainy.
    Regardless of which parts one enjoyed more, I think it's pretty clear that, as Tynion's one to do, he tried to cram way more into the arc than there was room for. The reason it sticks out as the biggest flaw in this one is because unlike, say, League of Shadows where a lot of the material outside the central plot wasn't very good to begin with, here, if the JPV stuff had been kept on its own and then Zee got a two-parter afterword, I'd probably consider both legitimately great.
    I think separating the two storylines would probably have done both more justice, although I don't think that made it a weak arc overall, but your mileage may vary.

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    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Just because something was built up well doesn't automatically make the pay off satisfying or well written. This isn't something that happens rarely in fiction.
    What's unsatisfying about it? This is actually the best-case scenario for him turning evil again, because he was forced into it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I've seen worse written returns to villainy.
    I have seen worse...but on top of the writing still being very shoddy, it doesn't do Tynion any favors for me that he used a character I love that he clearly doesn't understand to facilitate Basil's return to villainy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think separating the two storylines would probably have done both more justice, although I don't think that made it a weak arc overall, but your mileage may vary.
    I don't think so either. I may not think it's great like it could have been, but it's still best of the major arcs.

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    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    I have seen worse...but on top of the writing still being very shoddy, it doesn't do Tynion any favors for me that he used a character I love that he clearly doesn't understand to facilitate Basil's return to villainy.
    Anarky, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Anarky, right?
    Yup. Even if I felt that everything else was being well done (which, if it was, I would be willing to admit), the fact that he tossed Lonnie into this mess pretty much meant from the start that I was going to hate it.

  14. #14
    Fantastic Member Man-Thing's Avatar
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    I really liked Clayface as part of Kate's team back during the otherwise horrid latter half of her first run, and was excited to see him back for Tec. I hadn't really read much batman stuff in between, so I don't know if he was a "bad guy" again between those two runs, but for me it felt like a natural extension of his time on The Unknowns to get grandfathered into the Bat Family proper. His apparent inevitable return to mentally unstable monster has me... disappointed. I do hope with the reinvented Ragman about we can have an Unknowns reunion, or at least acknowledgement, at some point. I don't think it's even been mentioned at all that Basil and Kate have worked together prior to this Tec run...

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    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man-Thing View Post
    I don't think it's even been mentioned at all that Basil and Kate have worked together prior to this Tec run...
    It was, in #934. She and Ragman don't seem to remember each other, though. Which is weird.
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