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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Which means nothing lol cuz 20 years later his son, the one guy who couldn't be corrupted by the dark side, loses all hope and momentarily contemplates emulating his dad and offing a youngling in his care
    At no point in his life was Ben Solo a Youngling.

  2. #17
    Fantastic Member Harbinger19's Avatar
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    SiegHart.jpg Sieg Hart from RAVE Master.

    A little background to set the stage...

    So Sieg is an Elemental Master, one of the most elite magic-users in the world. When he first appears he's an antagonist to the main group of heroes, working with the organization Demon Card as a member of their elite squad, the Oracion Six. Sieg's job as an Elemental Master is to protect time, which supersedes any affiliation he has to the nutjobs in Demon Card (it should be noted that for a long time, he was the only mage in the group). He even decides privately that once he's accomplished his immediate goal (dealing with the female lead Elie), he'll go back and kill King, the leader of Demon Card, personally.

    Now, Elie has unstable planetary level magic that she can't control in her called Etherion, a small fraction of which destroyed a huge chunk of the world decades before the main plot begins. Sieg doesn't want Etherion to blow up again like it did in the past, so he captures Elie and attempts to kill her with magic. He has to do it with magic because killing her physically would set off Etherion and give the world the Rogue One Death Star Treatment.

    Sieg goes to work ruthlessly zapping her with lightning bolts and shoving magic poison down her throat, to the point where poor Elie is screaming in pain and ends up begging for him to kill her. Unfortunately Etherion's power keeps her alive so that even the ruthless Sieg is cringing at the pain he's inflicting on a girl who just won't die.

    Then Haru, the main hero, gets in the way, and Sieg gets pissed off that Haru's putting one person over the rest of the planet, so he casts the spell Altairis on Haru, which sends the budding Rave Master into a space where he'll be tortured to death by his worst possible nightmares.

    So yeah, Sieg Hart is RUTHLESS. The perfect example of a Knight Templar Well Intentioned Extremist.

    Then he gets stabbed in the back by one of his Demon Card allies, which throws off Sieg's spell, and gives Haru the chance to seal away Elie's Etherion with the new Rave Master's power he gets. Ouch. Sieg's whole righteous mission turned out to be unnecessary at the last minute. He quits Demon Card and disappears for a good while, warning Haru not to mess with King. Haru being Haru, he helps his dad conclusively defeat King, the 'final boss' character, something like a fourth of the way through the story.

    Fast forward a few months...
    After defeating King, Haru and friends have been going around collecting the Rave Stones, which was their goal from the beginning of the series. Unfortunately, the Oracion Six reappear under new leadership. They smack down Haru and the gang and Elie gets so upset the Etherion seal comes undone. The Oracion Six freak out at the possibility of Elie blowing up, and say "Screw it, let's just kill her."

    Right when the heroes are about to bite it, Sieg Hart zooms in and saves their asses. He explains that he basically wants to atone for putting Elie through all that unnecessary suffering. The Oracion Six mock him for doing a 180 in terms of his goals, and jeer that he's no stronger than any of them individually Also, that he's flat out inferior to Haja, King's replacement, an elite mage like Sieg but with infinite magic reserves. Sieg Hart has ZERO chance of winning against 4 people on his level and one who's playing in another league.

    Then Sieg reveals a magic-amplifying circle in the sky; he drew it while they were distracted. Sieg nukes the whole group with COSMIC SORCERY and puts 4 of them on the ground with one blast. The four members of Oracion Six he worked with and previously admitted to be on his level (including Reina, who literally stabbed Sieg in the back because he wouldn't respond to her flirting) urge Haja to defeat Sieg, but he refuses, saying "Yeah, I can win...at the cost of ALL YOUR LIVES." Cue HOLY SHIT faces from the Oracion Six.

    Wisely, they cut their losses and GTFO.

    Sieg Hart. Badass anti-villain turned badass anti-hero on a redemption quest, who whupped the hero's ass, only lost because he got literally stabbed in the back by one of his peers, then comes back and smacks down said backstabbing peer and 3 others as redemption for what he did to Elie and Haru.

    NOTE: That image of Sieg is from a significantly later point in the story than what I've described, where he does in succession two things that are even MORE badass than the saga above.
    "What I sought, I could not obtain."

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  4. #19
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Which means nothing lol cuz 20 years later his son, the one guy who couldn't be corrupted by the dark side, loses all hope and momentarily contemplates emulating his dad and offing a youngling in his care
    Did you forget that bit where Luke momentarily gave into the dark side and tried to violently murder his own father in Return of the Jedi?

    Like, I get that a lot of people didn't like TLJ for a variety of reasons, I personally liked it a lot, but this whole thing of claiming that Luke never had issues with the dark side in his life or was somehow incorruptible just isn't true.
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  5. #20
    Astonishing Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Did you forget that bit where Luke momentarily gave into the dark side and tried to violently murder his own father in Return of the Jedi?

    Like, I get that a lot of people didn't like TLJ for a variety of reasons, I personally liked it a lot, but this whole thing of claiming that Luke never had issues with the dark side in his life or was somehow incorruptible just isn't true.
    When he threatened his sister who actually cared for him then yes he tried to murder a man who had up till that point only had contact with him through attempted murder

    He didn't though ultimately, just like he held off attacking a creepy evil dude he only knew through attempted murder of his friends as long as he could. I seriously don't see the comparison between that and trying to kill his nephew in his care in his sleep

    A better comparison would be the time Anakin killed everyone because he had a dream of the future lol

    TLJ ruined Luke's character and is a cheap cash in by killing off iconic characters either figuratively or otherwise. to prop up a bunch of mediocre movies. Don't see how anyone can say otherwise
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 01-11-2018 at 01:40 AM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    When he threatened his sister who actually cared for him then yes he tried to murder a man who had up till that point only had contact with him through attempted murder

    He didn't though ultimately, just like he held off attacking a creepy evil dude he only knew through attempted murder of his friends as long as he could. I seriously don't see the comparison between that and trying to kill his nephew in his care in his sleep

    A better comparison would be the time Anakin killed everyone because he had a dream of the future lol

    TLJ ruined Luke's character and is a cheap cash in by killing off iconic characters either figuratively or otherwise. to prop up a bunch of mediocre movies. Don't see how anyone can say otherwise
    Nik means that it isn't the first time Luke has given in to his darker emotions. He lashed out in complete rage at Vader, which jedi aren't supposed to do. He overcame that anger in the end, but he still gave into it for several minutes.

    With Ben, Luke had like a single moment of weakness because he realised that Ben had pretty much turned to the dark side already. He didn't go to Ben's bed with a plan to kill him, he just wanted to see how far gone he was with his space wizard powers. Then, for one second or so, what he saw scared him and his kneejerk reaction was to stop the problem before it became a problem. But just like with his anger aimed at Vader, Luke overcame those dark emotions to stop himself. It was just at the very wrong moment.

    TLJ doesn't ruin Luke's character. It just takes him down a bleaker road than expected. And in the end he does overcome his self pity to save the day.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Nik means that it isn't the first time Luke has given in to his darker emotions. He lashed out in complete rage at Vader, which jedi aren't supposed to do. He overcame that anger in the end, but he still gave into it for several minutes.

    With Ben, Luke had like a single moment of weakness because he realised that Ben had pretty much turned to the dark side already. He didn't go to Ben's bed with a plan to kill him, he just wanted to see how far gone he was with his space wizard powers. Then, for one second or so, what he saw scared him and his kneejerk reaction was to stop the problem before it became a problem. But just like with his anger aimed at Vader, Luke overcame those dark emotions to stop himself. It was just at the very wrong moment.

    TLJ doesn't ruin Luke's character. It just takes him down a bleaker road than expected. And in the end he does overcome his self pity to save the day.
    And I'm saying the reasons for both are not comparable. One of these is Luke acting in desperation after repeatedly holding off as long as he can against the people that were murdering his friends. It is absolutely the Jedi way to do "what they must"

    The other is Luke nearly acting against innocents on some possible future just like Anakin. This is absolutely not the Jedi way, ask Yoda

    I mean the ridiculous "go away and hide in the remotest corner of the universe" after that is pretty out of character too

  8. #23
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    He was just after the porgs.
    "I am Galactus ! I do what I do !"

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  9. #24
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    And I'm saying the reasons for both are not comparable. One of these is Luke acting in desperation after repeatedly holding off as long as he can against the people that were murdering his friends. It is absolutely the Jedi way to do "what they must"

    The other is Luke nearly acting against innocents on some possible future just like Anakin. This is absolutely not the Jedi way, ask Yoda
    *sigh*

    And here we go.

    In Star Wars, corruption by the dark side is something Jedi can literally sense and perceive. It's not Luke reacting to what Ben might have become, he reacted to his nephew being significantly corrupted by Snoke.

    He did not try to kill him, he considered it for a moment and then was somewhat horrified at his own thought process. The dark side is seductive and Luke, when pushed, is susceptible to it.

    I don't see how Luke having a moment of doubt ruins the character especially when his quite specific experience of the dark side in his family would mean that this would make him react strongly.

    The first instance in RotJ sets up that Luke can be driven into the dark side, even if only temporarily, and TLJ calls back to that by playing on Luke's fears.

    Yoda even says that fear is the first step in heading toward the dark side.

    I mean the ridiculous "go away and hide in the remotest corner of the universe" after that is pretty out of character too
    Yoda and Obi Wan did it. It's pretty much a Jedi tradition at this point.

    I mean, you don't have to like TLJ but saying that having fears and doubts is out of character for Luke is just not true. Guy literally abandons his Jedi training because of his fears pertaining to his family, he does rash things and reacts quickly when his family is concerned.

    Ben is family. Ben was heavily corrupted. Luke reacted to that because it scared him seeing someone he loved in danger from the dark side.

    It's consistent.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    *sigh*

    And here we go.

    In Star Wars, corruption by the dark side is something Jedi can literally sense and perceive. It's not Luke reacting to what Ben might have become, he reacted to his nephew being significantly corrupted by Snoke.
    And Ben's reaction of murdering everybody there who wasn't evil as well pretty much shows that Luke's failure here was NOT killing him.

  11. #26
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    One of these is Luke acting in desperation after repeatedly holding off as long as he can against the people that were murdering his friends. It is absolutely the Jedi way to do "what they must"
    Do what they must, sure. But holding onto the Light Side, and not giving in to the Dark Side to do it. The whole business of Jedi training is for them to maintain that even under pressure. What good is being a warrior-monk type person if the first time someone pokes your red button, you lose it? If the first time stuff starts going really badly, you crack and start with the Dark Side stuff?

    The point is to maintain that focus and continue to stick with the Light Side when things are at their worst, not just when things were okay.

    It's not exactly a knock against Luke that he had these moments, either. It means he is human, not some kind of perfect, emotionless robot.
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  12. #27
    The Beautiful Night Melchior's Avatar
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    Honestly, I mostly viewed it as "If you use the Force to try and see the future, it will mess things up. (or maybe just show the worst possible outcome)" Happened to Anakin about Padme, Luke and Bespin, Snoke in his chambers, Luke and Ben....

    On topic!

    Would not Skurge the Executioner at Gjallerbru be one of the most classic examples of this?
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  13. #28
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Given the revelations of THE LAST JEDI, perhaps Luke Skywalker himself (and his actions in the climax of that movie) now qualifies to be on this list.

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  14. #29
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    Stain the Hero Killer from My Hero Academia has a really good moment when he saves Izuku for no other reason than because he truly believes that Izuku has the heart to be a true hero. In doing so he busts up his ribs and some internal organs and loses any shot he might've had to get away from being arrested.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Lord Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Stain the Hero Killer from My Hero Academia has a really good moment when he saves Izuku for no other reason than because he truly believes that Izuku has the heart to be a true hero. In doing so he busts up his ribs and some internal organs and loses any shot he might've had to get away from being arrested.
    The injuries were due to his 3 on 1 fight with Izuku, Todoroki and Tenya, but yeah that showed how dedicated Stain was to his ideology, good or ill.

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