TITANS #18: Discussion and Spoilers

[Cmbmool]

I love the Titans, but this ain't the Titans. <shoulder shrug>

This version of Donna is unrecognizable when you get to the core of who is Donna Troy. (Sorry, had to make the pun - but it's so true a sentiment in this run.)

It always feels like DC always had trouble with Donna Troy.

[Dred]

It always feels like DC always had trouble with Donna Troy.

The fans had the trouble. DC just didn't and doesn't care about her so she gets fucked over by whatever they're doing to Wonder Woman as a natural consequence rather than any actual mind for the character.

Yet here they are, Wonder Woman is at the height of her popularity, and they put a terrible run on the character and **** up any spin off characters that could work with Wonder Woman. Basic incompetence more than anything.

[Mel Dyer]

Lilith predates Raven. Raven is the edgier, darker version of her. All the things she does with premonitions and wonky psychic powers getting the team in trouble came long before Wolfman was writing the Titans.

Not that that makes Lilith original since she was just a Marvel Girl/Jean Grey rip off.

Of course, Lilith predates Raven, and I liked her, long before Wolfman/Perez soft-rebooted Teen Titans.

While I won't go so far to call Raven a clone or copy of Lilith, I totally agree that she was the evil upgrade, so to speak, for Lilith. It doesn't change the fact that the Lilith we're reading, today, while superficially resembling Jean Grey - red hair, green uniform, psychic powers - appears to be little more, than a mopey, hooded, cloak-slinging stand-in for Raven. That's a shame, because Wolfman era, beatnik-Bohemian Lilith is so cool in her own right and has so many qualities found in the fictional heroines of today (2018) that she might be just as commercially successful as, if not more than, Raven or Jean Grey. Do we really need Lilith to stand-in for Raven, when some clever writer could just (somehow) bring the original Raven, back, and ditch Lilith, altogether? Maybe, we need some clever writer or artist to put Lilith in an iconic uniform that evokes the original spirit of the character and simply call her 'Lilith Clay'...no stupid codename.

Omen? Seriously...any NTT fans ever imagine Wolfman's Lilith climbing into a feminized 'Spectre' costume and calling herself 'Omen'? That sound anything like the Lilith we've known and loved? I think 'Omen', being the title of a classic horror film, about an antichrist murdering his parents and taking over the world, and the word being attached to so much negative, heavy psychic energy ..would be such a HUGE turn-off for Lilith. It simply would never have happened. Truthfully, in spite of even that, I can live with the 'Omen' codename, easier than I can that horrendous costume.

Aside from all of that, I think Lilith was given a uniform and codename, because they make her easier to trademark and to market on merchandise, without fear of confusion with other companies' characters. I still cannot accept that, as a reason for mangling such a cool and iconic character, as Lilith. Again, a little imagination could fix that problem, too; so, I refuse to accept that dreary, hooded 'Miss Spectre' is the best we can do...

Not groovy. No way.

The fans had the trouble. DC just didn't and doesn't care about [Donna Troy] so she gets fucked over by whatever they're doing to Wonder Woman as a natural consequence rather than any actual mind for the character...incompetence more than anything.

I think all of that is an outgrowth of the fact that DC's creative people can't seem to figure out what to do with the original Titans, for a number of reasons myself and others have already cited, in this discussion.

Writers and editors can't seem to find a niche for Donna, ..as a Wonder or a Titan. Because of that, there's no editorial mandate - Donna is like this, does this, would never do that - protecting or informing what editors will allow (key word) writers to do with her. Keep in mind that every writer, who has ever done something horrible or unforgivably out-of-character with Donna, needed editorial permission to get it into a comic book. If only there'd been something, an editorial consensus or understanding that Donna.. (1) wasn't created to be Wonder Woman's evil twin or dark mirror, (2) would never massacre a tribe of innocent men and (3) would never, EVER turn into a narcissistic, globally focused despot, like Per Degaton or Doctor Doom, ..she might not be such a hot mess. The Bat-heroes, by comparison, don't seem to have similar problems, because creators have found a niche for these characters, and there's an understanding about what can or should and will NEVER (ever, ever) be done, with them.

Writer pitches making Nightwing and Obsidian a couple, and editor says...u-uuhh...no? Dick Grayson has slept with Starfire, Raven, Batgirl, Supergirl, the Huntress, the Tarantula, Catwoman, Black Canary...that's half the Bat Family, the Birds of Prey and then some? So, no.

That's the kind of editorial consensus, I'm talking about. If Donna Troy had that, we'd be having a totally different discussion.

[Dred]

Of course, Lilith predates Raven, and I liked her, long before Wolfman/Perez soft-rebooted Teen Titans.

While I won't go so far to call Raven a clone or copy of Lilith, I totally agree that she was the evil upgrade, so to speak, for Lilith. It doesn't change the fact that the Lilith we're reading, today, while superficially resembling Jean Grey - red hair, green uniform, psychic powers - appears to be little more, than a mopey, hooded, cloak-slinging stand-in for Raven. That's a shame, because Wolfman era, beatnik-Bohemian Lilith is so cool in her own right and has so many qualities found in the fictional heroines of today (2018) that she might be just as commercially successful as, if not more than, Raven or Jean Grey. Do we really need Lilith to stand-in for Raven, when some clever writer could just (somehow) bring the original Raven, back, and ditch Lilith, altogether? Maybe, we need some clever writer or artist to put Lilith in an iconic uniform that evokes the original spirit of the character and simply call her 'Lilith Clay'...no stupid codename.

Omen? Seriously...any NTT fans ever imagine Wolfman's Lilith climbing into a feminized 'Spectre' costume and calling herself 'Omen'? That sound anything like the Lilith we've known and loved? I think 'Omen', being the title of a classic horror film, about an antichrist murdering his parents and taking over the world, and the word being attached to so much negative, heavy psychic energy ..would be such a HUGE turn-off for Lilith. It simply would never have happened. Truthfully, in spite of even that, I can live with the 'Omen' codename, easier than I can that horrendous costume.

Aside from all of that, I think Lilith was given a uniform and codename, because they make her easier to trademark and to market on merchandise, without fear of confusion with other companies' characters. I still cannot accept that, as a reason for mangling such a cool and iconic character, as Lilith. Again, a little imagination could fix that problem, too; so, I refuse to accept that dreary, hooded 'Miss Spectre' is the best we can do...

Not groovy. No way.



I think all of that is an outgrowth of the fact that DC's creative people can't seem to figure out what to do with the original Titans, for a number of reasons myself and others have already cited, in this discussion.

Writers and editors can't seem to find a niche for Donna, ..as a Wonder or a Titan. Because of that, there's no editorial mandate - Donna is like this, does this, would never do that - protecting or informing what editors will allow (key word) writers to do with her. Keep in mind that every writer, who has ever done something horrible or unforgivably out-of-character with Donna, needed editorial permission to get it into a comic book. If only there'd been something, an editorial consensus or understanding that Donna.. (1) wasn't created to be Wonder Woman's evil twin or dark mirror, (2) would never massacre a tribe of innocent men and (3) would never, EVER turn into a narcissistic, globally focused despot, like Per Degaton or Doctor Doom, ..she might not be such a hot mess. The Bat-heroes, by comparison, don't seem to have similar problems, because creators have found a niche for these characters, and there's an understanding about what can or should and will NEVER (ever, ever) be done, with them.

Writer pitches making Nightwing and Obsidian a couple, and editor says...u-uuhh...no? Dick Grayson has slept with Starfire, Raven, Batgirl, Supergirl, the Huntress, the Tarantula, Catwoman, Black Canary...that's half the Bat Family, the Birds of Prey and then some? So, no.

That's the kind of editorial consensus, I'm talking about. If Donna Troy had that, we'd be having a totally different discussion.

I just don't think you can call her a stand-in for Raven when she's doing the same thing she ever did long before Raven showed up, is my point. It's not like she changed to be more like Raven unless you think Booth giving her an edgy costume is that (and Booth can't help but make someone's costume edgy). She's more her Silver Age Teen Titans self than her Perez/Wolfman self, admittedly, but this isn't an unusual place for Lilith in the grand scheme of things. The name doesn't bother me very much. It's just a synonym for premonition, which is her power. Omen isn't a negative word, otherwise you wouldn't have to stipulate "bad omen" when you say it. There are good omens, too!

And yes, all of your statements about Donna are true and are essentially what I was saying when I said whatever happens to her is a consequence of DC doing something to characters they care about. She's the afterthought, something they decide to react to other changes they make when a writer goes "oh I have to write Donna Troy, how do I handle this?" It's a shame.

[Mel Dyer]

I just don't think you can call her a stand-in for Raven when she's doing the same thing she ever did long before Raven showed up, is my point. It's not like she changed to be more like Raven unless you think Booth giving her an edgy costume is that (and Booth can't help but make someone's costume edgy). She's more her Silver Age Teen Titans self than her Perez/Wolfman self, admittedly, but this isn't an unusual place for Lilith in the grand scheme of things. The name doesn't bother me very much. It's just a synonym for premonition, which is her power. Omen isn't a negative word, otherwise you wouldn't have to stipulate "bad omen" when you say it. There are good omens, too!

And yes, all of your statements about Donna are true and are essentially what I was saying when I said whatever happens to her is a consequence of DC doing something to characters they care about. She's the afterthought, something they decide to react to other changes they make when a writer goes "oh I have to write Donna Troy, how do I handle this?" It's a shame.

I can live with the Omen codename, and it seems I must. It's that horrible costume that I can't stand. It's really got to go.

[jamgut]

I can live with the Omen codename, and it seems I must. It's that horrible costume that I can't stand. It's really got to go.

Lilith's outfit looks like it would get in the way of any physical activity. It's as if she just grabbed a sheet or curtain on the way out the door and wrapped herself in it.

[titanfan]

I can live with the Omen codename, and it seems I must. It's that horrible costume that I can't stand. It's really got to go.

Lilith is/was supposed to be a respectable hand to hand combatant, so her costume doesn't make sense.

That said, she'd probably be a semi-annoying hipster if you re-imagined her today.

[OBrianTallent]

Lilith's outfit looks like it would get in the way of any physical activity. It's as if she just grabbed a sheet or curtain on the way out the door and wrapped herself in it.

carol-burnetts-gone-with-the-wind-curtain-dress-21360861.jpg
Makes me think of the old Carol brunette skit when you put it that way.

[TruthAndJustice]

Since we're talking about the 1980s NTT -- anyone catch the flashback to those days inside Wally (Flash) West's head in FLASH Annual #1? That was nice to see.

[Mel Dyer]

Lilith's outfit looks like it would get in the way of any physical activity. It's as if she just grabbed a sheet or curtain on the way out the door and wrapped herself in it.

Yes!!! This guy...! I am a fan!

I agree, completely, of course. She's not the SPECTRE, for crying out loud. Seriously...she's not a ghost ..or Batwoman. Why, why, why, besides the crass, fun-killing reasons that I outlined in my last posts, would anyone put her in this dreadfully out-of-character costume? Why would editors allow...?

Makes me crazy!

Lilith is/was supposed to be a respectable hand to hand combatant, so her costume doesn't make sense.

That said, she'd probably be a semi-annoying hipster if you re-imagined her today.

She would totally be ..like a baby hipster...cuz, she's probably in her twenties, but totally into the urban Bohemian things (New Age stuff, coffeehouse culture, progressive politics, fair trade, ec) that we typically associate with hipsters.

Her base-ops should be Takoma Park, Maryland, circa 1976, ..or Asheville, North Carolina, today.

carol-burnetts-gone-with-the-wind-curtain-dress-21360861.jpg
Makes me think of the old Carol brunette skit when you put it that way.

Yes!!! This guy...! Total agreement, over here...

And that is totally her costume! OMG! What is she doing in that fugly, fascist-fantasy costume?! That is so NOT anything close to who Lilith is or has ever been. She's not secretive or theatrical enough to be a superhero mysterioso, and veteran Titans fans know that.

That rag has got to go.

Since we're talking about the 1980s NTT -- anyone catch the flashback to those days inside Wally (Flash) West's head in FLASH Annual #1? That was nice to see.

I love those flashbacks, and every one of them makes me want to see a clever writer find some way to get the NTT team back together, again.

[Robotman]

They really should downplay Lilith’s supernatural vibe and play up the telepath powerset. Lilith came first but Raven will always be the supernatural goth girl of the Titans franchise.

carol-burnetts-gone-with-the-wind-curtain-dress-21360861.jpg
Makes me think of the old Carol brunette skit when you put it that way.

Haha!
Yes, I really hate her current costume.

[married guy]

As someone mentioned earlier, the current Titans don't have any reason for being a team. They have no mission statement.
It's difficult to give a rat's arse about what is going on when you're still trying to figure out why on Earth they're together in the first place.

The book has improved, but it's still nowhere near as good as it should be.

[madmodpoetgod]

Reboot Titans with Warren Ellis and Clay Mann.

[Rac7d*]

Lilith's outfit looks like it would get in the way of any physical activity. It's as if she just grabbed a sheet or curtain on the way out the door and wrapped herself in it.

she not a hand to hand fighter, actualy i am still not sure the nature of her powers beyond telepathy? telekinsis, precognition, Jean grey, while raven has basicly unlimited cosmic power?

[Mel Dyer]

As someone mentioned earlier, the current Titans don't have any reason for being a team. They have no mission statement.
It's difficult to give a rat's arse about what is going on when you're still trying to figure out why on Earth they're together in the first place.

The book has improved, but it's still nowhere near as good as it should be.

I want to see some writer treat them as a small strike force, happy and competent in their abilities to f-up a badguy's situation. Furthermore, I'd love some writer to ditch this JL in-training angle, in how they approach this team. Tactically and offensively, the Titans are a different animal and don't need and shouldn't want to be the JL...

Reboot Titans with Warren Ellis and Clay Mann.

Which is why Warren Ellis and Clay Mann are my fantasy Titans creative team. I am so on the same page, amigo. Warren Ellis's first Authority story arc, Jenny Sparks lobotomizing a god-like, alien Jello mold from outer space...aw, that was a religious, nigh erotic experience for me. Ellis and Mann...

Bring it the hell on!

she not a hand to hand fighter, actualy i am still not sure the nature of her powers beyond telepathy? telekinsis, precognition, Jean grey, while raven has basicly unlimited cosmic power?

Dan Abnett is showing Lilith to be a competent h2h combatant, while also mastering telekinesis, precognition and all of that marvelous [LOL] Jean Grey stuff, ..without the Raven-level, unlimited demonic power. I can live with her codename, just fine...the rest? Not so much.

For my money, Lilith could keep her silly 'Omen' codename and do her thing in a one-piece, spandex thing with attached shorts, that could be copyrighted and trademarked, if that's a marketing or editorial issue with her. She could also be quite physical in it, having freedom of movement and handling her combat business, ..as such situations arose.

She doesn't need that godsawful 'Spectrette' thing to go 'heroing' in.