The Martian Manhunter Pro/Con Workshop

[Trey Strain]

I started a thread about this topic a while back, and it didn't go well at all. Several people dug in their heels and fought back hard, even angrily, against any suggestion to change him. The climate has changed now. I think most people see the possibility that he'll slip into limbo if he can't be changed that so he'll sell.

[CRaymond]

I started THIS thread because I think J’onn is even more of an anachronistic mess of a character than Superman. Nearly everything about J’onn screams he’s a potpourri product of the uneducated 1950s. At least Superman’s had thousands of stories and Elseworlds to give him context relativity. J’onn’s just floated through due to his involvement in various successful Justice Leagues. His most recent unsuccessful series, the ones that make him a space-opera edge lord, angry at humanity, are garbage as well.

I wanted to begin a discussion so others could tell me thier perspective about what works and what doesn’t work at this point. I’m not sure he’ll ever “sell” well as a monthly. I want his merch to sell. I want to give it the kind of emotional heft that Patty and Gal are dropping all over Wonder Woman.

[CaptCleghorn]

I started a thread about this topic a while back, and it didn't go well at all. Several people dug in their heels and fought back hard, even angrily, against any suggestion to change him. The climate has changed now. I think most people see the possibility that he'll slip into limbo if he can't be changed that so he'll sell.

I remember that thread. Most of the blowback was about your massive changes to the character. You even wanted to make him not being from Mars.

[CaptCleghorn]

I started THIS thread because I think J’onn is even more of an anachronistic mess of a character than Superman. Nearly everything about J’onn screams he’s a potpourri product of the uneducated 1950s. At least Superman’s had thousands of stories and Elseworlds to give him context relativity. J’onn’s just floated through due to his involvement in various successful Justice Leagues. His most recent unsuccessful series, the ones that make him a space-opera edge lord, angry at humanity, are garbage as well.

I wanted to begin a discussion so others could tell me thier perspective about what works and what doesn’t work at this point. I’m not sure he’ll ever “sell” well as a monthly. I want his merch to sell. I want to give it the kind of emotional heft that Patty and Gal are dropping all over Wonder Woman.

He's a complicated character who's had many tries. There's a lot there to look at. I think many have noted various issue with him. I will be brutally honest, I really doubt he'll ever approach the intensity Patty and Gal have helped Wonder Woman get.

[CRaymond]

I will be brutally honest, I really doubt he'll ever approach the intensity Patty and Gal have helped Wonder Woman get.

I'm clearly exaggerating. I want a blue cape and a red X on a Tshirt to mean something to kids in the backyard; for MM to be less of a consolation prize for the kid that didn't grab the red cape, the black mask, or the tiara. For MM to have his own coolness.

[chief12d]

I think we can all agree he needs a power change: Get rid of the super strength and nigh-invulnerability. Up (or maintain) his current TK and TP abilities while keeping his self-molecular manipulation. I like the slightly eldritch-type being they went for in his most recent solo so I'd like him to still be able to shapeshift and turn invisible. But the intangibility is pushing it so that can only be used in limited amounts and is unique to J'onn alone.

Costume-wise he's very archaic and steeped in the 50's which worked for a few decades but has since gone a little stale. The new attire he has better captures the regal, alien type vibe he should constantly give off and more efforts should be made in that direction. I would personally like J'onn to be clearly identifiable as an alien just by looking at his outfit.

Meanwhile, a constant barrier to his long-term success has been how strange he looks. Green skin, often times oddly shaped head, red eyes, are surprisingly difficult to get people invested in or attracted to, so maybe he can be redesigned to be more "classically" handsome. Keep the green skin and red eyes but give him some sort of hair analogue (like hair, feathers, tendrils). He can still look clearly alien and be play into people's fantasies as a good looking hero.

[CaptCleghorn]

I'm clearly exaggerating. I want a blue cape and a red X on a Tshirt to mean something to kids in the backyard; for MM to be less of a consolation prize for the kid that didn't grab the red cape, the black mask, or the tiara. For MM to have his own coolness.

I'm sorry. Sometimes, a fan's zeal can be so strong I misunderstand. But I get your love for the character. Your thread is a good one in that we're free to exchange idea and accept if someone doesn't agree with us.

[CRaymond]

I'm sorry. Sometimes, a fan's zeal can be so strong I misunderstand.

Ha, don't apologize. I have less love for the specific character than I do for the messy universe he occupies, and the untold kids who are told they have to wear the blue cape. The hierarchy of DC IP may always be Super on top, but that doesn't mean we can't build a formidable challenge.

[Osiris-Rex]

3. Secret Identity

John Jones as a primary secret ID, with others used as well. I'd probably avoid having him assume Female identities though

Why not? In the TV show he assumed the identity of Supergirl, Kara Danvers, and a little girl in a park. Being a sexy woman or a little kid, or even just an ordinary woman would be a great way to throw men off guard.

Why would you want to add that restriction?

And, can he at least still be a cat?

In one of the Justice League of America stories he assumed the form of Catwoman. So can he be a woman that dresses like a cat?

[shades of eternity]

I think it's the opposite.

the arrowverse showed the world the martian manhunter and we finally, as a whole, want to see him on a regular basis.

[Jcogginsa]

Why would you want to add that restriction?

And, can he at least still be a cat?

If Martians are going to have Gender identity, it should probably be reflected in their shapeshifting. It wouldn't be a "Physically incapable of doing this" thing, it would be a "This feels unnatural thing"

So he wouldn't have any female identities that he spends time in, but he would be able to shapeshift into Wonder Woman in a pinch, for example

[CRaymond]

So he wouldn't have any female identities that he spends time in, but he would be able to shapeshift into Wonder Woman in a pinch, for example

Yeah the gender identity thing is what held me back from taking Martians all the way down to a gelatinous Odo species. If they were truly shape-ambivalent like Skrulls, J'onn's notions of gender, not to mention parenthood and family, would be gibberish. Martians need to start humanoid and gendered if we want to keep those elements of J'onn's history. I think it adds a lot to his character, so I'm hesitant to rewrite or even reconsider those bits.

I'd also remaster his shapeshifting to be more like Mystique, and not like Plastic Man. He can only modify his appearance to resemble other humanoids. That way animorphs like Beast Boy and true shapeshifters like Plas have some uniqueness.

I've got a grand restructuring post in the works, but I'm headed to dinner with the folks.

[Jcogginsa]

Personally I'd go in something of a different direction. J'onn's Shapeshifting in my view should be based around him telekinetically reshaping his molecules, meaning that he's got more variety as a shifter, being able to transform into rocks, metal, etcetera

[Jon Clark]

Personally I'd go in something of a different direction. J'onn's Shapeshifting in my view should be based around him telekinetically reshaping his molecules, meaning that he's got more variety as a shifter, being able to transform into rocks, metal, etcetera

As I stated elsewhere I'd go with that and some psionic powers as the basis for his classic powers.

The shape-shifting would be a complex combination of rearranging his molecules and some mental tricks. He not only duplicates the appearance of another object, he is actively sending signals to your brain to ignore anything that doesn't fit. So he looks like a tiger and if you take a whiff of the air you smell what you expect to smell from a tiger. And he not only looks like your personal assistant but unless you stop to think about it, you forget that your assistant took the day off or you just saw them entering the cafeteria five minutes ago to get lunch. It's not a massive effect most of the time- someone with some natural resistance to mental control would be less fooled and be going on what they actually see in front of them.

His flight and strength work like John Byrne's ideas for Superman or a real basic concept of Kon-El. J'onn is telekinetically lifting himself and objects he is touching. When he hits things he adds a TK push where his body connects so his Martian musclepower is increased. And he telekinetically either holds his body intact when struck (physical invulnerability) or pushes the molecules apart (phasing) while using a low level telekinetic/telepathic field to maintain enough connectiveness that he doesn't disintegrate in the process.

Any of the visual powers are also psionic in nature. To the extent he has telescopic or microscopic vision it is really either clairvoyance and/or looking through other beings' eyes. Same with other senses like hearing. Any heat vision is telekinetically agitating molecules in an object.

[stephens2177]

I've thought for awhile now that Jonns powers we're the opposite of kon-els,or the other way around seeing as Jonn has been around for a lot longer.look at every power,Kon has the exact opposite of it,ive called him a Martian buster because of this.self TK,self molecular manipulation,whatever you want to call it,this is how I see every power that's not telepathy while kons powers effect the world around him,Jonns effects himself