The Martian Manhunter Pro/Con Workshop

[scary harpy]

Oh yeah the new one with the cool masthead and smooth purple costume. I liked the art but I never read it. I did see a couple captions and speech bubbles that confirm what you're saying though. I don't know the details, but it felt like a mind game and J'onn didn't know what was real.

I feel like destroying the family unit backstory in favor of a Total Recall fake past is the wrong way to go! He's an alien with truly alien superpowers and you're(the writer) going to take away the only sympathetic bridge we have to him? Plus, his father-daughter relationship works SO WELL with Alex, Kara, and M'gann... I'd hate for that to be a lie.

It's the classic trope: everything you know is a lie.

His actual tragic backstory: he's a weapon designed by the White Martians. Now that he knows this, perhaps he can redesign himself? (In other words, redefine his own abilities...kinda like we'd like to do.)

Yes, his Martian family is a lie. The white Martians consider him only as a weapon. So the only real people he's ever known are earthlings!

This would mean he's more invested in Earth than Mars. His relationships here are now the important ones...father/daughter or whatever they are.

He's now a being redefining himself, searching for himself, finding his truth and etcetera. I'm hoping this might make him more relatable...and his origin much less like Superman's origin.

[CRaymond]

Ugh. I'm normally a baby and bathwater guy, and I can see the whiteboard appeal, but yeesh that's a lot to toss out.

[stephens2177]

Ugh. I'm normally a baby and bathwater guy, and I can see the whiteboard appeal, but yeesh that's a lot to toss out.

That's WAY to much to be thrown out.DC likes to flip flop on stuff all the time,I'm sure they will do the same here

[scary harpy]

Ugh. I'm normally a baby and bathwater guy, and I can see the whiteboard appeal, but yeesh that's a lot to toss out.

That's WAY to much to be thrown out.DC likes to flip flop on stuff all the time,I'm sure they will do the same here

I understand your sentiments.

Sometimes you need a fresh start when the old ways are not working. By the existence of the thread, I think we can agree a lot is not working for J'Onn.

[CRaymond]

By the existence of the thread, I think we can agree a lot is not working for J'Onn.

Yeah, but the stuff that doesn't work is entirely superficial. Powers, shapes, costume... The actual character personality is quite strong, as evidenced consistently through animated shows Justice League and Young Justice, and now played by David Harewood in Supergirl. He's the quiet, contemplative dad of whatever team he's on --who's haunted by past traumas.

I can think of two versions of the Manhunter that DON'T play that role. Both don't seem like J'onn, or at least, the J'onn that seems to work in the chemistries of the League(s). The very fact that I can think to myself: "That doesn't seem like J'onn..." means there's an essential character in between all these portrayals.

I'm willing to discuss and entertain the massive lie re-origin, but that essential character IS the most important part of J'onn J'onzz.

[scary harpy]

Yeah, but the stuff that doesn't work is entirely superficial. Powers, shapes, costume... The actual character personality is quite strong, as evidenced consistently through animated shows Justice League and Young Justice, and now played by David Harewood in Supergirl. He's the quiet, contemplative dad of whatever team he's on --who's haunted by past traumas.

I'm willing to discuss and entertain the massive lie re-origin, but that essential character IS the most important part of J'onn J'onzz.

Cool.

That does not have to change; the traumas change...but not the character. He's paternal because he wants the family he never had (instead of the family he lost). He's contemplative because he always felt something was wrong...off somehow...but he never knew what (instead of being the last survivor of his species and watching his loved ones die). The truth freed him from false memories...not his core personality. He now contemplates his place in this world since he never had a place on Mars.

I feel he would have a stronger connection to Earth this way.

[CRaymond]

Okay, gimme an outline.

What's the White Martian plot to employ J'onn the artificial lifeform?

[shades of eternity]

https://www.wired.com/2013/05/able-archer-scare/

ever wonder in the dc universe equivelent if Jonz Jones saved the world?

[scary harpy]

Okay, gimme an outline.

What's the White Martian plot to employ J'onn the artificial lifeform?

If I recall the mini-series correctly, the White Martians deployed J'Onn to infiltrate Earth and, then, recreate Mars at the expense of Earth. Apprantly, the 2 worlds cannot coexist.

J'Onn rebelled eventually. It's been awhile since I read the story.

[scary harpy]

Yeah, but the stuff that doesn't work is entirely superficial. Powers, shapes, costume... The actual character personality is quite strong, as evidenced consistently through animated shows Justice League and Young Justice, and now played by David Harewood in Supergirl. He's the quiet, contemplative dad of whatever team he's on --who's haunted by past traumas.

We may have to agree to disagree. The stuff that does not work is not superficial to me.

To me, powers, shapes and costumes are as essential to the character as personality. Comics is a visual medium; if I do not like what I see, then I will turn away...from the book. The powers and the colors are what appeals to my sense of aesthetic.

J'Onn having the right powers and the right costume is as important to me as having the right personality is to you.

[stephens2177]

We all know DC likes to give us the character we want,BUT tweaking the character enough to the point we can't support it and it falls to the waste side,and of course DC acts like it's the character when it's their dumbasses who can't identify what about a character we fans cling to.

I was reading the last Jonn series,but I didnt like the insane amount of shapeshifting-limited and telepathy he does in it.maybe I'm to much of a straight forward hero type guy,but it was to much.that was a example of DX giving us fans what we want,but then making it into something we can't support.

I like the powerset we thought up here,and I like the origin I wrote up above from mars to have,to JL and beyond,just keep him what we love about him and go full throttle

[CRaymond]

J'onn having the right powers and the right costume is as important to me as having the right personality is to you.

Oh cmon you know I wasn’t discrediting the things you mention as unimportant. Clearly costume, powers, and brand appearance is important, but those things also far more mutable than the behavior we’ve grown to associate with J’onn J’onzz.

[daBronzeBomma]

Basically, my take is on this topic is: since the biggest problems MM are the following perceptions

1) He is viewed as a copy-cat Superman.

2) Conversely, he has too many wildly different powers (even more than Superman, which says something).

3) His "compromise" appearance is too off-putting (weirdly either still too alien or not nearly alien enough).

4) He is laughingly supposed to be the all-white JL's representative of actual people of color (Which is hugely insulting to many POC readers, such as myself, because Green =/= Black or Brown).

Then DC should do things that negate these perceptions while carving out a niche that MM alone can dominate.

[CRaymond]

1) He is viewed as a copy-cat Superman.

I'm interested in learning why YOU (and others) feel he is a copycat Superman. Subtract powers from the conversation, please.

2) Conversely, he has too many wildly different powers (even more than Superman, which says something).

Fixed, somewhat. Shapeshifting* = Martain physiology. Tactile Telepathy** = Martian discipline.

Flight/Strength/Durability = some feel Shapeshifting covers this, some feel Martian Supersuit Armor covers this, some feel other things entirely.

3) His "compromise" appearance is too off-putting (weirdly either still too alien or not nearly alien enough).

Still unresolved. Though, I want to add an android to the stew and pull out a green-skinned near-human.

4) He is laughingly supposed to be the all-white JL's representative of actual people of color.

I think that's an observation, not an intention. I'm sure the white guy that decided to put MM in a "big 7" roster barely considered him a stand-in of anything. Still the observation is an important one, and I think the consistent use of black actors to portray MM is a Good Idea. I'd like to see MM take on a variety of superheroic identities, most of them black.

****

* Anthromorphic Shapeshifting (Mystique)
mimics humanoid forms
mimics humanoid voices
mimics humanoid clothing
invisibility

** Tactile Telepathy
able to hear and see thoughts through physical contact
able to purge telepathic links through physical contract
able to put susceptible targets to sleep with a touch
able to relay telepathic thoughts in a closed network among consensual persons

[stephens2177]

Basically, my take is on this topic is: since the biggest problems MM are the following perceptions

1) He is viewed as a copy-cat Superman.

2) Conversely, he has too many wildly different powers (even more than Superman, which says something).

3) His "compromise" appearance is too off-putting (weirdly either still too alien or not nearly alien enough).

4) He is laughingly supposed to be the all-white JL's representative of actual people of color (Which is hugely insulting to many POC readers, such as myself, because Green =/= Black or Brown).

Then DC should do things that negate these perceptions while carving out a niche that MM alone can dominate.

1- get rid of the martian vision,and make all his flying brick powers be from self matter manipulation,not "just because".instead of the same super senses Superman has,give him a spider sense type tingle when something is going to attack,and have his senses adjusted to the environment of Mars,not just "whatever Superman can,but more"

2-he has tactile telepathy and self matter Manipulation,that's it.density control gives you strength, durability,and intangibility,his telepathy only works when touching someone,shapeshifting is limited to human like forms,and transparency of his cells,not just blanket invisibility.limits all over the place,but still top tier

3-i personally would just make his "compromise" form be his actual martian form,that way it's not compromise at all,and it goes with his more limited shapeshifting.

4-when he goes human,a black guy named John Jones,he has worn the face so long he feels it's his "other" natural form.