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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Trey Strain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I remember that thread. Most of the blowback was about your massive changes to the character. You even wanted to make him not being from Mars.
    Come on. If someone created this character today, he certainly would not come from within our solar system, because everyone now knows that that's nonsense. His being a Martian is a campy turn-off to new readers who aren't already sold on him.

    If there's something about an old character that wouldn't fly today if he were new, then it should go away.

    But no, what got a few people upset was that I suggested changing his costume. It's still quite surprising to me that anyone was attached to it. I think it might be the worst in comics.

    The MM doesn't have enough fans to veto any changes in him. They're not in a position to bargain for anything. What would they do? Stop buying his comic?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    1. Powers
    I'd given him Telepathy and Telekinesis, and explain his other powers as being a result of those two powers used in a creative manner.

    2. Mars

    This is controvrsial, but I think I'm have Mars be a living world. I feel like versatility could be a huge strength for J'onn, but having him be the sole survivor of a Genocide contrains him too much for that to be effective.

    I'm also open to the idea of J'onn having powers other Martians don't

    3. Secret Identity

    John Jones as a primary secret ID, with others used as well. I'd probably avoid having him assume Female identities though
    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    If Martians are going to have Gender identity, it should probably be reflected in their shapeshifting. It wouldn't be a "Physically incapable of doing this" thing, it would be a "This feels unnatural thing"

    So he wouldn't have any female identities that he spends time in, but he would be able to shapeshift into Wonder Woman in a pinch, for example
    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Personally I'd go in something of a different direction. J'onn's Shapeshifting in my view should be based around him telekinetically reshaping his molecules, meaning that he's got more variety as a shifter, being able to transform into rocks, metal, etcetera
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    As I stated elsewhere I'd go with that and some psionic powers as the basis for his classic powers.

    The shape-shifting would be a complex combination of rearranging his molecules and some mental tricks. He not only duplicates the appearance of another object, he is actively sending signals to your brain to ignore anything that doesn't fit. So he looks like a tiger and if you take a whiff of the air you smell what you expect to smell from a tiger. And he not only looks like your personal assistant but unless you stop to think about it, you forget that your assistant took the day off or you just saw them entering the cafeteria five minutes ago to get lunch. It's not a massive effect most of the time- someone with some natural resistance to mental control would be less fooled and be going on what they actually see in front of them.

    His flight and strength work like John Byrne's ideas for Superman or a real basic concept of Kon-El. J'onn is telekinetically lifting himself and objects he is touching. When he hits things he adds a TK push where his body connects so his Martian musclepower is increased. And he telekinetically either holds his body intact when struck (physical invulnerability) or pushes the molecules apart (phasing) while using a low level telekinetic/telepathic field to maintain enough connectiveness that he doesn't disintegrate in the process.

    Any of the visual powers are also psionic in nature. To the extent he has telescopic or microscopic vision it is really either clairvoyance and/or looking through other beings' eyes. Same with other senses like hearing. Any heat vision is telekinetically agitating molecules in an object.
    This all sounds good.

    Telekinesis and Telepathy have been used in so many hundreds of ways that they can do almost everything.

    J'Onn's "tactile" telekinesis could easily cover the 'super' strength, personal force aura for durability and healing, flight, shape-shifting, 'eye-beam' telekinetic blasts, a telekinetic 'sense' and intangibility. (A telekinetic sense would work like sonar or projecting his sense of touch across a wide area. This might help him see through illusions too.)

    Telepathy could cover a really wide range of telepathic abilities including mind-reading, telepathic invisibility and several other telepathic senses.

    This would cover almost all of his classic powers.
    Last edited by scary harpy; 01-15-2018 at 07:14 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    This all sounds good.

    Telekinesis and Telepathy have been used in so many hundreds of ways that they can do almost everything.

    J'Onn's "tactile" telekinesis could easily cover the 'super' strength, personal force aura for durability and healing, flight, shape-shifting, 'eye-beam' telekinetic blasts, a telekinetic 'sense' and intangibility. (A telekinetic sense would work like sonar or projecting his sense of touch across a wide area. This might help him see through illusions too.)

    Telepathy could cover a really wide range of telepathic abilities including mind-reading, telepathic invisibility and several other telepathic senses.

    This would cover almost all of his classic powers.

    Ppl get pissed when Jonn and Superman are constantly compared,but you just gave Jonn almost all of kon-els superpowers,which would put us in the same place.

    Self telekinesis,not tactile telekinesis.self controls and manipulates itself,and tactile controls and manipulates everything outside of it.thats pretty simple,and you can understand BOTH of their powers just with that

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    Come on. If someone created this character today, he certainly would not come from within our solar system, because everyone now knows that that's nonsense. Keeping him from Mars is a campy turn-off to new readers who aren't already sold on him.
    O I don't know if that's 100% true. Granted, I'm with you in that things described as Martian-this, Martian-that, are quite silly.

    Part of what I'd like to introduce for J'onn is a grand mystery. He's a detective as John Jones, and I'd call his equivalent on Ma'aleca'andra an "Inquistor". I'd like to have J'onn be from a Mars that's reaching the height of their civilization during Earth's Cretaceous Period, 80 million years ago. That's a significant amount of time for Mars to be a very different place than it is today.

    So let's assume J'onn knows a little bit about the universe, but what he does know is extremely outdated information. And while he has suspicions, he doesn't know what happened to Mars. It's a crime that haunts him, and drives him to 1) work toward strengthening Earth against an alien invasion and those agents who might conspire with extraterrestrial invaders, and 2) explore the DCUniverse to learn more about what happened to his people and what happened in the millennia following its destruction.

    The above sets up a situation where the known DCUniverse is a film noir crime story, dressed up as an ages-long space opera. Our solar system is the chalk outline of a planet's murder. We get to learn about the DCUniverse through the eyes of a Rip Van Sherlock, and discover along the way that the civilization that once covered Mars has left a blood trail throughout the known universe. Adding to that: Earth is potentially at risk, should the perpetrators ever return to the scene of the crime. You get John as a detective, you get J'onn as the director of the DEO, you get J'onn as a motivator for the creation of the Justice League, and you get a reason why he might leave the planet from time to time: he's following up on a tip.

    It also makes the discovery of Miss Martian an amazing, heart-breaking connection to a world thought long expired.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member Trey Strain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    O I don't know if that's 100% true. Granted, I'm with you in that things described as Martian-this, Martian-that, are quite silly.

    Part of what I'd like to introduce for J'onn is a grand mystery. He's a detective as John Jones, and I'd call his equivalent on Ma'aleca'andra an "Inquistor". I'd like to have J'onn be from a Mars that's reaching the height of their civilization during Earth's Cretaceous Period, 80 million years ago. That's a significant amount of time for Mars to be a very different place than it is today.

    So let's assume J'onn knows a little bit about the universe, but what he does know is extremely outdated information. And while he has suspicions, he doesn't know what happened to Mars. It's a crime that haunts him, and drives him to 1) work toward strengthening Earth against an alien invasion and those agents who might conspire with extraterrestrial invaders, and 2) explore the DCUniverse to learn more about what happened to his people and what happened in the millennia following its destruction.

    The above sets up a situation where the known DCUniverse is a film noir crime story, dressed up as an ages-long space opera. Our solar system is the chalk outline of a planet's murder. We get to learn about the DCUniverse through the eyes of a Rip Van Sherlock, and discover along the way that the civilization that once covered Mars has left a blood trail throughout the known universe. Adding to that: Earth is potentially at risk, should the perpetrators ever return to the scene of the crime. You get John as a detective, you get J'onn as the director of the DEO, you get J'onn as a motivator for the creation of the Justice League, and you get a reason why he might leave the planet from time to time: he's following up on a tip.

    It also makes the discovery of Miss Martian an amazing, heart-breaking connection to a world thought long expired.
    I'm a big fan of Nigel Kneale's Quatermass and the Pit mini-series, which you can probably find posted online. I bought into it because it posited a Martian civilization that existed millions of years ago. But that's a different scenario than the Martian Manhunter's.

    I'm not concerned about the people who are already sold on the character. You have to look at it as, what's keeping NEW readers from buying into him?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    I'm not concerned about the people who are already sold on the character. You have to look at it as, what's keeping NEW readers from buying into him?
    New monthly book? Merchandise? What do you mean buying into him?

    Batman has a Wayne-Family-in-Gotham mythology, Superman has Krypton and Kansas, Wonder Woman has ACTUAL mythology. I think it's important to give MM a STORY kids can understand, if not completely grasp its weight. It's not revenge, and it's not survivor's guilt, it's what comes after.

    Thanks for the Quartermass suggestion. I don't necessary think we should run from the campy, pulpy science fiction that created J'onn, I think we need to find a way to give it a place --by deepening the nuance-- in a complex universe that has science fiction baseline.
    Last edited by CRaymond; 01-15-2018 at 08:44 AM.

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member Trey Strain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    New monthly book? Merchandise? What do you mean buying into him?

    Batman has a Wayne-Family-in-Gotham mythology, Superman has Krypton and Kansas, Wonder Woman has ACTUAL mythology. I think it's important to give MM a STORY kids can understand, if not completely grasp its weight. It's not revenge, and it's not survivor's guilt, it's what comes after.

    Thanks for the Quartermass suggestion. I don't necessary think we should run from the campy, pulpy science fiction that created J'onn, I think we need to find a way to give it a place --by deepening the nuance-- in a complex universe that has science fiction baseline.
    What I mean by readers "buying into" a character is the comics company getting him over with the readers. That's not easy to do, especially in today's comics market.

    Please check out Quatermass and the Pit. That's some hell-a writing!

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    What I mean by readers "buying into" a character is the comics company getting him over with the readers.
    I think J'onn has a better shot gaining popularity via animation and television. Hell, I think animation and television is WHY he's popular at all. What's tragic is that they're not banking on those things to sell more merch, and thereby sell more intellectual property to the masses, and have that enthusiasm inspire more books and more great stories.

    Also: I'm certainly not saying J'onn can or should challenge T'Challa as the foremost black superhero, but I think there's an opportunity for children to find representation in J'onn as a Superman of color.
    Last edited by CRaymond; 01-15-2018 at 09:07 AM.

  9. #69
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    I'm pretty sure black ppl would be more pissed that a shapeshifter green martian takes the form of a black guy,because he can change at anytime,they can't.what better way to piss ppl off than to throw it in ppls face that a guy can "slip out" of the same problem anytime he wants.

    I like that Jonn could come from Mars from the past,or maybe another universe.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    I'm pretty sure black ppl would be more pissed that a shapeshifter green martian takes the form of a black guy,because he can change at anytime,they can't.what better way to piss ppl off than to throw it in ppls face that a guy can "slip out" of the same problem anytime he wants.
    Blackness is not a problem. Racism is a problem. J'onn isn't black but he CHOOSES to be when he seeks to experience humanity. I think that's a good message.

  11. #71
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    If Martians are going to have Gender identity, it should probably be reflected in their shapeshifting. It wouldn't be a "Physically incapable of doing this" thing, it would be a "This feels unnatural thing"

    So he wouldn't have any female identities that he spends time in, but he would be able to shapeshift into Wonder Woman in a pinch, for example
    J'onn did comment he found wearing a skirt surprisingly comfortable when he filled in for Kara Danvers after Supergirl was being mind controlled by Black Mercy.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    I'm pretty sure black ppl would be more pissed that a shapeshifter green martian takes the form of a black guy,because he can change at anytime,they can't.what better way to piss ppl off than to throw it in ppls face that a guy can "slip out" of the same problem anytime he wants.
    .
    From what I have read, J'onn J'onzz is very popular with black people. They have adopted him as one of their own.

  12. #72
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    I'd also make J'onn's time as Bronze Wraith and Bloodwynd canon. They are just superhero aliases used in the past. He might have several others, and we would learn them all. In Metropolis he's Superman Blue, in Gotham City he's The Outsider, and with Wonder Woman, he's known as the Son of Mars.

    I'd redesign all of them to have blue capes.
    Last edited by CRaymond; 01-15-2018 at 10:13 AM.

  13. #73
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    On of the things I'd do with J'onn's identity is play up the fact that his 'secret identity' is explicitly and entirely the construct, by using his psychic powers to make the identities more real. Similar to Elliott S! Maggin's take on the Superman/Clark dichotomy.

    Something else I'd do relates to the costume. I'd make it a sort of Martian symbiote that can shapeshift with him, instead of it being part of his own body. It'd be the martian equivalent of a dog

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    On of the things I'd do with J'onn's identity is play up the fact that his 'secret identity' is explicitly and entirely the construct, by using his psychic powers to make the identities more real. Similar to Elliott S! Maggin's take on the Superman/Clark dichotomy.
    Could you explain what you mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Something else I'd do relates to the costume. I'd make it a sort of Martian symbiote that can shapeshift with him, instead of it being part of his own body. It'd be the martian equivalent of a dog
    Haha yes! Zook, right?

  15. #75
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    Come on. If someone created this character today, he certainly would not come from within our solar system, because everyone now knows that that's nonsense. His being a Martian is a campy turn-off to new readers who aren't already sold on him.

    If there's something about an old character that wouldn't fly today if he were new, then it should go away.

    But no, what got a few people upset was that I suggested changing his costume. It's still quite surprising to me that anyone was attached to it. I think it might be the worst in comics.

    The MM doesn't have enough fans to veto any changes in him. They're not in a position to bargain for anything. What would they do? Stop buying his comic?
    Trey, you wanted to change his look (including skin color, hair and costume), his origin, and his powers. You left very little, if anything, of the original character left. That's what people got on you about.

    Mars is a problematic concept. An idea that the martian civilization was million of years in the past has been used. That concept is scientifically sound today, that is, life on Mars in the distant past. We know trying to come up with the version of MM that would be generally popular is tough. Numerous writers have tried to put their slant on him and very few have been successful in lighting fandom's fire.

    John Ostrander (whom you say isn't the solution and I agree here) managed to bring many of those facets together. This is probably why his run was the most successful for J'onn. What about J'onn is good and makes him the character he is? Find and keep that and your chances of success are better. But something needs to be kept or it's not the same character.

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