The Martian Manhunter Pro/Con Workshop

[stephens2177]

If no one can agree on what to do with him,they should do what they do with all characters they don't have plans for,fake it till you make it.which means in DC terms throwing him on team and be blah,so he is out there,and wait for a good idea to come along

[stephens2177]

Yeah, I think it’s a bit too simple for my tastes.

I realize my retcon and setup might be too convoluted for others, but adding complexity to his story and a gearshift to his powers were my primary goals.

Explain it in a paragraph(like my signature does for my preferred take on kon-els powers),if you can then I can see it working

[CRaymond]

Explain it in a paragraph(like my signature does for my preferred take on kon-els powers),if you can then I can see it working

Sure thing. Soon as I get home.

[stephens2177]

Sure thing. Soon as I get home.

Sweet.i think DC wants to all their characters easy to explain.

[Lightning Rider]

He doesn't sell. If he were fine, he'd sell.

There's a difference between "I like him the way he is" and "He's fine."

There's a difference between a character having some inherent drawback, and not being given the correct opportunity. You seem so eager to reinvent the character and rely on soundbites from casual non-fans as if they define the character's potential.

Attaching a big name to the character with a strong central theme would be a big step in the right direction. Look what Tom King did with Vision. You have to have a story that asks: what is this character about? What struggles do they go through? How can I present them in a new and interesting way? What sets this character apart, and how can I make readers relate to and be intrigued by that?

World-building is also really important. One of the main weaknesses J'onn has compared to the other big-time Leaguers is his lack of a core place and supporting cast. Granted, his theme is having lost his world, but they need to show us what it was he lost, and how he's making a new home for himself.

Here's a list of things we should see:

On Mars:

-J'onn's childhood
-J'onn's adolescence and training to become a Manhunter; we learn of his influential mentors, friends, and the process of choosing career paths in Martian culture
-J'onn's career as a Manhunter and warrior during conflicts with the White Martians.
-J'onn returning to Mars to investigate underground caverns or abandoned cities while uncovering some mystery, perhaps relating to Martians who used their psychic powers to exist on some psychic plane (could it be a trap?)

On Earth:

-J'onn learning about humanity in his early days as a detective, forming relationships with human officers
-J'onn going on a Siddartha-like quest where he imitates different forms of life (cop, gang member, celebrity, sex worker) learning different lessons along the way (Year One kind of did this to great effect)
-J'onn infiltrating a shady organization long-term, only to be found out, and having to use what he learned through psychic means to appeal to his captors
-J'onn accessing the minds of certain villains and being somehow negatively affected. Perhaps he battles some of them on a completely mental plane, navigating their psyche and having to exploit their weaknesses while facing his own.

Flesh him out. A good story will catch on. You don't need to depower him to make him unique.

[CRaymond]

Explain it in a paragraph

Millennia ago, Mars was home to several tribes of shapeshifting beings. The skilled mindreader J'onn J'onzz was a police investigator among the Green Martians. When his world was invaded by alien godlike Manhunters, he defended his family and risked his life to defeat a murderous machine. In a fate worse than death, J'onn found himself alone, millions of years in the future, and somehow merged with the Manhunter android. Able to shift shapes between Martian and Manhunter, J'onn J'onzz uses all the powers at his disposal to piece together the past, and protect the present.

*******

Martian powers: humanoid shapeshifting, haptic telepathy, invisibility, flight
Manhunter powers: super strength, super speed, super durability, intangibility, flight

*******

Miss Martian powers: shapeshifting, camouflage, innate telekinesis, haptic telepathy
Jemm powers: shapeshifting, innate telepathy

Dominators, evolved Martians

[Doctor Bifrost]

Kryptonians evolved through science and their worship of Rao.which gets you super evolved beings who are solar batteries to be closer to their god.

Except they're nothing like that on their own planet, or under a red sun of the kind that Rao represents. Their powers under a yellow sun seems unrelated to their evolution, except by accident (what evolutionary biologists call "spandrels"), since they didn't evolve under a yellow sun.

[Doctor Bifrost]

If no one can agree on what to do with him,they should do what they do with all characters they don't have plans for,fake it till you make it.which means in DC terms throwing him on team and be blah,so he is out there,and wait for a good idea to come along

Hey, they put him on Stormwatch! That worked out great.

(The whole New 52 thing of "three worlds coming together because they're all needed to face some future threat," which included WildStorm in the three worlds, turned out to be something of dud, didn't it? WildStorm always deserved their own universe to exist in, and now they've got it again. I'd say the same for Milestone. And the Shazam characters.)

[Doctor Bifrost]

If Martians are going to have Gender identity, it should probably be reflected in their shapeshifting. It wouldn't be a "Physically incapable of doing this" thing, it would be a "This feels unnatural thing"

Alternatively, they could have gendered forms for reasons of reproduction, but it might not be a big, important thing in their psyche. Some of them might be comfortable in one form or another; others might not care much, and might switch after a few hundred years, and then switch back after another millennium.

I realize that that would seem quite alien to most human beings (not all, as it turns out), but that's the point: Martians are aliens to us.

I would imagine that taking on a human form would be the uncomfortable thing J'onn would have to get used to, regardless of whether that human form was male or female.

I'm not saying it has to be like that - Martians might have a very strong sense of individual gender, as most human beings do - but it's a possible alternative.

(There are life forms, even here on Earth, that switch gender at various points.)

[stephens2177]

Millennia ago, Mars was home to several tribes of shapeshifting beings. The skilled mindreader J'onn J'onzz was a police investigator among the Green Martians. When his world was invaded by alien godlike Manhunters, he defended his family and risked his life to defeat a murderous machine. In a fate worse than death, J'onn found himself alone, millions of years in the future, and somehow merged with the Manhunter android. Able to shift shapes between Martian and Manhunter, J'onn J'onzz uses all the powers at his disposal to piece together the past, and protect the present.

*******

Martian powers: humanoid shapeshifting, haptic telepathy, invisibility, flight
Manhunter powers: super strength, super speed, super durability, intangibility, flight

*******

Miss Martian powers: shapeshifting, camouflage, innate telekinesis, haptic telepathy
Jemm powers: shapeshifting, innate telepathy

Dominators, evolved Martians

Besides the merging with the manhunter(which I know is a big part of your idea),I like it,even like the Vulcan style tactile or haptic telepathy.

[stephens2177]

Except they're nothing like that on their own planet, or under a red sun of the kind that Rao represents. Their powers under a yellow sun seems unrelated to their evolution, except by accident (what evolutionary biologists call "spandrels"), since they didn't evolve under a yellow sun.

I will not believe the Kryptonians just happended upon their great powers when their whole species was so driven by science.

My scenario would be that they stopped being a species that travelled the cosmos because of their great power,and knowing the corruption that it could bring.that is why they are so xenophobic and willing to "lock themselves up" on Krypton.

Hey, they put him on Stormwatch! That worked out great.

(The whole New 52 thing of "three worlds coming together because they're all needed to face some future threat," which included WildStorm in the three worlds, turned out to be something of dud, didn't it? WildStorm always deserved their own universe to exist in, and now they've got it again. I'd say the same for Milestone. And the Shazam characters.)

You know this what comic companies do wirh characters that are popular but not enough to hold a series for long.every team has at least 1 character like this

[DragonsChi]

Blackness is not a problem. Racism is a problem. J'onn isn't black but he CHOOSES to be when he seeks to experience humanity. I think that's a good message.

I'm Black and I think it's a terrible idea to promote him as a black man. His favorite form can be that of a black man but it's even more racist to hand us a green "monster" from space and tell us he is just like you. The character is a shapeshifter from mars who is like a million years old, in continuity, with god like abilities. He will never really understand what it is like to be a black man in America. To suggested it is more of a display of not knowing (unintentional ignorance) than it is to truly identify with what means for our culture.

Back to the topic. I do feel that the MARS part should not be removed from the character since it's a "core" aspect. There are certain things about characters that shouldn't be messed with since it takes to much from what they are. If you are going to do that you might as well make a new character. What I feel is core to J'ohn is :

1. From Mars
2. Telepathy
3. Tragic Feeling of Isolation
4. Giant Red X
5. Innate ability to identify and understand others around him. (sorta like most psychologist can understand how indivuals tick)
6. Green Bald man again from Mars
7. Deception/Away to hide himself from others (Shapeshifting or Illusion casting of some kind.)
8. Oreos

These are the things that stand out most in my mind when I think of J'ohn. It's a mix of what actually makes him "iconic" and core character concepts that make up who he is.

I believe if DC sticks with that as a base they will be fine for the most part if they ever do mix anything up with him.

Like I said before I do feel his powers as a whole is a large reason people do not gravitate towards him. All powerful characters become boring after awhile.

[CRaymond]

His favorite form can be that of a black man but it's even more racist to hand us a green "monster" from space and tell us he is just like you.

Where did I suggest that was my intention?

I've said, repeatedly now, that I like that black actors are called on to portray J'onn J'onzz, and would like that reflected in the pages of a DC comic.

Besides the merging with the manhunter(which I know is a big part of your idea),I like it,even like the Vulcan style tactile or haptic telepathy.

Thank you :-)

I knew going in that involving the Manhunter robot army would be controversial and probably a bridge too far. "Manhunter" in its definition as a detective, is first among the old-fashioned elements I wanted to update. It's a word that sounds violent, suggests danger, and the idea of something alien to humankind. Some of that is good, but it's used far more effectively by a population of rogue robots that (could) exist in the same time as Mars' civilization. Both Mars, and the Manhunters of Oa are part of the DCU's cosmic mythology. I wanted to bring them together and show an ancient interaction of those forces in opposition. J'onn would be the hero that arises from that cosmic conflict.

so...
1. J'onn is now both fundamentally Martian AND Manhunter. Regardless of whatever alias he chooses, his essential being is defined by those two descriptions.

2. J'onn's powers are a tiered setup of alien physiology, cultural education, and ultimately a heroic sacrifice that changes his form completely.

3. His ability to switch between Martian and Manhunter affords him a cool transformation sequence(Autobots/Sailor Moon), aside from his more subtle Martian shapeshifting powers(Mystique).

4. His ability to switch between Martian and Manhunter limits the tools at his disposal. He's either a subtle, shadowy hero as a Martian(Batman) --or a godlike, cosmic sky fighter as a Manhunter(Superman).

5. His ability to switch between Martian and Manhunter allows him a means to physically travel to other planets, and truly be a cosmic character.

6. Removing his telekinesis and limiting his telepathy to a learned skill --that relies on physical touch --makes him a melee character in either form.

7. His strange, new biometallic body and its various shifted forms allows J'onn to be a mentor of sorts to Cyborg, who is similarly a composite being.

8. The complicated Martian physiology I promote allows for Miss Martian to emerge at a later date, and exhibit her own unique powerset, like innate telekinesis. J'onn can teach her his learned limited telepathies, and she can try to teach him how to bend spoons remotely.

9. As partially Manhunter, J'onn has a fraught connection to the Green Lanterns and the Guardians of Oa.

[WonderScott]

My vision for J'onn is to have him be co-leader of a new take on The Outsiders I've been cooking up.

[DragonsChi]

My vision for J'onn is to have him be co-leader of a new take on The Outsiders I've been cooking up.

I always thought he would do better on that team myself. But most people want J'ohn on the JLA.

I always thought he could really come into his own on another team though. However, the new 52 kinda spat on that idea twice....