The Other history of the D.C.

[Vic Vega]

While I kinda get what you mean, the one crucial difference between this and the Iran hostage crisis example from the previous issue is that in the case of the latter, Jeff himself provides some semi-plausible explanations for why the League wouldn't have got involved...even if he doesn't agree with those explanations himself. Here, Karen doesn't give the League the benefit of the doubt at all. It's a minor point...but it makes all the difference.

I suppose one can argue that Jeff simply had a more balanced attitude towards the other heroes than Mal and Karen did I mean, you have Jeff being a lot more understanding of John Stewart and Superman and even Vixen, after initially judging them. In this issue, I think Karen feeling sorry for Superman after Kara dies is about the only time one of them really admits that maybe they judged the other heroes too harshly.

Bumblebee saw the Titans as kind of messed up. It's not shocking that she likely saw the JLA as the people who messed them up in the first place ( especially in the case of Robin and Batman) and wasn't likely to give them slack as a result.

[skyvolt2000]

All this would work for me if the accusation weren’t so damning towards characters we’re supposed to view as heroes. They can be flawed, just as Jefferson, Mal, and Karen were also depicted as being, but having them accuse the JLA of completely ignoring a murder spree that stretched over years without following that up to show how there’s more to the story, like Ridley did with Jefferson’s opinions towards John, breaks the story for me.

Hell, even if the Atlanta murders are being used as a metaphor for the systematic failures that allowed it to stretch on for so long, it doesn’t work because the FBI had over a hundred agents working on this case. Why not show that the JLA did eventually pay attention to the Atlanta murders, but, like the FBI, took far to long to pay attention to it. As written, it sounds like the JLA just sat on their hands and nothing is said or implied to show that this was off base.

Once again this is from Karen's VIEW POINT. HER view point. If this was a general story that focused on a variety of folks that scene would have happened. Remember those two were not as active in the hero community as Black Lightning or Flash or Hal Jordan are.

If they were say active in Teen Trainwreck-they might have heard some heroes were active BEHIND THE SCENES. Since the FBI would not let it be known super heroes were helping.

Since no one knew who the killer was. It could have been a trap by Legion of Doom or worst someone who would have done worst in a quest to get more attention.

Also what events were going on at that time that would have kept some heroes away?

Wasn't Legends starting up that resulted in a new JLA and Suicide Squad?
Wonder Woman was just starting up again.
Batman was about to lose Jason at the hands of Joker.
John Stewart's wife was getting murdered.
So pretty much folks were busy.

Ridley was NOT hired to make Superman fans feel good. Might as well jump ship now because I am sure Katanna has a few choice words about JLA and Superman.

Along with Renee Montoya.

And we KNOW the daughter of Black Lightning-who is LGBTQ and a black woman-she has PLENTY of ammo to fire about the lack of black women as heroes along with LGBTQ ones.

[Dred]

Bored's point is less about it being a view point and more about retroactively making something that happened in real life canon to the DC universe only to say that the Justice League didn't fix the problem. That's not really about Karen's view point, that's establishing a retcon purely for the sake of calling the Justice League directly ignorant and irresponsible, and more subtly calling them racist. That Karen is saying it in her voice doesn't change that implication. That you can come up with a bunch of alternative ideas to retcon a retcon doesn't mean anything. That's not the story being told in the book we're discussing. You can't talk about alternative view points when there is no viewpoint but the one in the book.

An unreliable narrator isn't a real concept when the scope of the story never leaves their narration. They're the only narrators of this story. Imagine if Fight Club never showed us that Jack/Joe was imagining things and we just all left without knowing Tyler Durden wasn't real -- that reveal of the unreliability is necessary if having an unreliable narrator giving unreliable narration is important to the story. Maybe Ridley will revisit it later in the series to establish that, but I doubt it as that does not seem to be the theme here.

No, I don't think Mal and Karen are supposed to be seen as unreliable here. I think they're supposed to be seen as reliable but biased. Which is very, very different. What they're saying is meant to be taken as true, but we're expected to be able to tell that they're giving their opinions about it. But there's some cut and dry stuff included in this that, if what they're saying is true, then no other opinion is really valid. If the JL did just ignore murders because they happened to black people in Atlanta then Karen was probably too nice in what she said about them. If what Mal and Karen said about Garth and Roy and the rest of the Titans was true (and in many ways it factually just is not) then...well you get the point.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Once again this is from Karen's VIEW POINT. HER view point. If this was a general story that focused on a variety of folks that scene would have happened. Remember those two were not as active in the hero community as Black Lightning or Flash or Hal Jordan are.

If they were say active in Teen Trainwreck-they might have heard some heroes were active BEHIND THE SCENES. Since the FBI would not let it be known super heroes were helping.

Since no one knew who the killer was. It could have been a trap by Legion of Doom or worst someone who would have done worst in a quest to get more attention.

Also what events were going on at that time that would have kept some heroes away?

Wasn't Legends starting up that resulted in a new JLA and Suicide Squad?
Wonder Woman was just starting up again.
Batman was about to lose Jason at the hands of Joker.
John Stewart's wife was getting murdered.
So pretty much folks were busy.

Ridley was NOT hired to make Superman fans feel good. Might as well jump ship now because I am sure Katanna has a few choice words about JLA and Superman.

Along with Renee Montoya.

And we KNOW the daughter of Black Lightning-who is LGBTQ and a black woman-she has PLENTY of ammo to fire about the lack of black women as heroes along with LGBTQ ones.

I have no problem with presenting different viewpoints from characters that haven't been given enough representation in the DCU. That's the entire point of the series and it's one of the main reasons I am reading it.

If you want to discuss this with me, I am more than happy to, but I am not interested in doing so if you are going to continue to warp what I am arguing into me being upset that the characters are saying mean things about Superman. That's a strawman argument and is precisely why this particular story point rubbed me the wrong way in about otherwise good issue. Let's stick to what each of us is actually saying rather than the usual histrionics.

Thanks.

[kcekada]

This series is the best thing coming out of DC right now. I don't know what else to say about it besides that to be honest. I've never care much about Bumblebee, even less so for Mal, but this issue just sat me down and really made me feel for and care about these characters. the shit's beautiful man...

The characters got shafted because the runs in which they were featured have largely been dismissed by DC creators that followed. The mid 70s run on Teen Titans was not a great title, but Mal as Guardian and Karen as Bumblebee were two of the best things that sprang from it. But the DC Implosion also followed -- so there wasn't much room to do anything with them until the 80s. And Marv Wolfman was one of the creators who dismissed the previous run (can't really blame him -- it was almost universally panned). It took him a while to finally do something to move the characters forward after their disappointing cameos at Donna Troy's wedding.

Whether or not Mal is Guardian again in the future -- I'd like to see him back in the blue/gold exoskeleton with an appropriate helmet --- and more of Karen as Bumblebee.

[kcekada]

Still not really a big fan of the format and "why superheroes ain't solving the real problems" talking points, but I liked this way more than the first issue.

These characters have such messed up histories that only way to explain them in a coherent manner is to turn Teen Titans into bunch of assholes. I did complain about Superman being thrown under the bus in the first issue, but I'm less upset about Titans being showed in such light here. After all these two were Teen Titans characters so who else can you really blame asides of breaking 4th wall and shouting at former writers and editors.

I read issue 2 before I read issue 1. Issue one had a lot of prose that didn't seem to relate to anything specific in the actual history of the character -- whereas issue 2 was almost exclusively pulled from their actual history. With the exception of their first meeting -- pretty much everything else actually happened in comics. DC editorial in the 70s was far too conservative (I think they were always afraid of pi$$ing off their southern readers). Dave Cockrum had created two black characters for a Legion spin-off team that went nowhere. Of course, that could be due to Cockrum quitting due to a dispute with Carmine Infantino not giving him a piece of artwork he requested.

One of the Titans editors had a minor heart attack when he saw Mal in the Guardian getup. By the time a later editor fixed that mistake, the book was already slated for cancellation. A look at Tyroc from the 70s Legion would have been a great way to end the series -- being that a lot of crap went down behind the scenes on his creation as well.

Regarding real world events, I'd rather they be omitted.

[lemonpeace]

this was something I never considered. at this point it's a pretty common take that Batman may or may not be indirectly killing people with his tactics but i never occured to me that perhaps Gothamites know this but (like Gordan and the Batfamily identities) they selectively choose to believe he doesn't. that also explains a major problem I've had about Batman and criminals, why they would be so hysterically scared of a man who will go out of his way not to kill? Criminals would know that even though he "doesn't kill", Batman has probably put a few of their friends on a shirt just due to a Batarang nicking an artery or falling asleep and not waking up from a concussion. I like the idea that Batman may wanna believe he's "not killing people", and he even actively tries not to kill, but ultimately him and all of Gotham know on some level that's just part of his mythology; the man, the myth, has real bodies.

[Jcogginsa]

Issue three gives Deathstroke absolutely zero mercy.

[king of hybrids]

It’s nice that someone actually calls out what Slade did

[zvrk]

lemonpeace, there are fates worse than death and human body is very fragile.

Oooooh, I like this. Batman as a Gotham conspiracy monster that politicians, public and police feed. Nice that the writer was allowed to go there.

[king81992]

Issue three gives Deathstroke absolutely zero mercy.

Deathstroke was, is and always will be an animal who never deserved mercy. Too many writers and fans have given Slade a free pass for all his crimes for far too long. He has no business being shilled as an antihero.

Judas Contract's problem was never Terra being evil(though her 'evil' always felt like Wolfman trying to make Slade look good), the problem was Wolfman trying to pretend that Slade was justified in the aftermath.

Honestly, I am surprised that 'cancel culture' has not gone after Slade yet. If he got cancelled, I would not be mad.

[sifighter]

this was something I never considered. at this point it's a pretty common take that Batman may or may not be indirectly killing people with his tactics but i never occured to me that perhaps Gothamites know this but (like Gordan and the Batfamily identities) they selectively choose to believe he doesn't. that also explains a major problem I've had about Batman and criminals, why they would be so hysterically scared of a man who will go out of his way not to kill? Criminals would know that even though he "doesn't kill", Batman has probably put a few of their friends on a shirt just due to a Batarang nicking an artery or falling asleep and not waking up from a concussion. I like the idea that Batman may wanna believe he's "not killing people", and he even actively tries not to kill, but ultimately him and all of Gotham know on some level that's just part of his mythology; the man, the myth, has real bodies.

I think it’s definitely an interesting idea but I think it gets into another argument of intent. Do people probably get horribly injured or die later of injuries from Batman? Most likely and in fact we’ve actually seen this before with the Victim Syndicate, a team of villains who came after Batman because of how they suffered from incidents involved in his war against crime, either from villains or even Batman himself.

But Batman doesn’t go out of his way to kill criminals and I think that makes a difference. I’m not even bringing guns into this, because nothing is stopping him from just finishing them off with a batarang to the heart, a bloody beatdown, or whatever crazy techniques he’s learned in his life from the long line of mentors. But he doesn’t and I think that makes a difference to some people.

[Avi]

I enjoyed Tatsu's voice a lot and the Soultaker as a metaphorical name. That was new to me. I haven't read a lot of her appearances. Overall the Issue played more with expectation that the previous one.

As a Sade fan, I loved the mention.

Ridley going straight for Slade's throat is fantastic. It truly was swept under the rug. Victim blaming, as Ridley says.
It was strange to see Slade among the heroes mourning Superman after that. I wonder if that was deliberate?

Deathstroke was, is and always will be an animal who never deserved mercy. Too many writers and fans have given Slade a free pass for all his crimes for far too long. He has no business being shilled as an antihero.

Judas Contract's problem was never Terra being evil(though her 'evil' always felt like Wolfman trying to make Slade look good), the problem was Wolfman trying to pretend that Slade was justified in the aftermath.

Honestly, I am surprised that 'cancel culture' has not gone after Slade yet. If he got cancelled, I would not be mad.

Well, it's not in Slade's and Tara's stories anymore. Hasn't been for years now. Even if "everything is canon" which truly only means "what the creators chose is canon". DC won't change what Priest established.

The one who should be made to speak out about it is Wolfman if he never made a statement.

[K. Jones]

Deathstroke was, is and always will be an animal who never deserved mercy. Too many writers and fans have given Slade a free pass for all his crimes for far too long. He has no business being shilled as an antihero.

Judas Contract's problem was never Terra being evil(though her 'evil' always felt like Wolfman trying to make Slade look good), the problem was Wolfman trying to pretend that Slade was justified in the aftermath.

Honestly, I am surprised that 'cancel culture' has not gone after Slade yet. If he got cancelled, I would not be mad.

Slade being reprehensible is part of why I like reading a well-written Deathstroke story. He's a bad man. Like, ethically bad. His struggle tends to be that perverse inverse where no matter how hard he tries to be a straight up bad guy he's always stepping over the line and doing something good, sticking his toe up to the line where he goes from irredeemable to ... oh shit he's almost maybe a little redeemable, and how that makes us feel as readers or how that makes heroic characters feel about him is interesting storytelling, and storytelling worth telling. But yeah - no joke about passing him off as some bad-ass anti-hero (particularly so they can corporatize/use his likeness in other media and conveniently ignore the fact that his HORRIBLENESS is in his DNA from his very first appearances in Wolfman's run.

Victim-blaming Terra is a good angle here for the ruthless approach. She's not innocent and diagetically in-story they went out of their way to let us know she's not innocent (say whatever you will about the 'being written and created by dudes part of it in the meta), although they never went about explaining what (prior to Slade) actually went about taking her innocence away from her (until some more hackneyed attempts later), and Slade's "line" about "You're not that innocent or naive" justifying things was always him gaslighting. And again - dealing with telling stories about broken people here, and what happens when badly broken people butt up against the Teen Titans, who were always a little more 'slightly broken' than 'badly broken', is good grounds for storytelling, but you've got to do the legwork. Terra's story is a tragedy to the max, and Deathstroke is predatory in a way that makes Bruce Wayne seem ethically benevolent by comparison. (Bruce Wayne is not, but that's the notion!)

It's interesting to cast that "shades of gray" aspect to everyone from Geo-Force to Beast Boy in retrospect that way. Not perfect people, but more than that just in a universe of their own where the ideal of the Justice League types doesn't track. And I think the implication is that Batman (and by extension probably Dick Grayson), they get it. They are constantly in that world of shades of gray. Batman cavorts with assassin queens and dances dalliances with murderers all the time and wrestles those ethical conundrums and then tries to measure his personal experiences with the ideal Ideal of what the JLA is trying to do. Dick Grayson has been raped twice under different pretenses and one wonders why his relationships for the last several runs are a sh**-show.

But in all fairness to the Justice League, I think almost every member is always grappling with that. Green Lanterns, especially once that lethal force option went into effect, but obviously Hal when he went Parallax-Crazy or Kyle with the Fridging or John with Xanshi and Fatality, whose very name is a spin on the notion of (Space) Police Fatalities. Aquaman ... I mean, Aquaman ... grappling with affairs of state, he's a guy who as a king would literally have to send men to kill other men. Justified sometimes in defense, sometimes in preemptive, and you can only just take off super-hero style and "single-handedly do the work" so many times in a big old undersea fantastical kingdom. Plus his wife is a stone cold lethal killer. And on and on down the line (obviously Barry Allen 'killing' Thawne is one of the landmark moments in his entire run.)

It's totally worth a spin therefore to come at this from the point-of-view of characters who really don't even ever have the luxury to try to live up to some impossible standard - an impossible standard that obviously nobody except maybe Superman can actually live up to.

Anyway I liked this one. I liked Tatsu's point of view and the grounded approach and she kind of read like Ian Fleming's James Bond for me, which was interesting to think about. There was the obvious real life social impetus and callbacks which I think played fine in the narrative, the refresher course on Barr's original Outsiders run which I haven't re-read in 15 years and am realizing seems like it might be more relevant and groundbreaking now in hindsight, and probably my favorite part was frankly just seeing all of Katana's costumes represented. Not only because the evolution is cool but because it gives a sense of a good long-running super-hero career full of growth and change, and some of those costumes are real bangers. Something about Tatsu's "real" connection with her sword being that they're, frankly both Cold and Sharp, plays well for me. I always preferred Soultaker to be more ethereal of a concept, more abstract, less overt. More mystique, less mystical.

[K. Jones]

Well, it's not in Slade's and Tara's stories anymore. Hasn't been for years now. Even if "everything is canon" which truly only means "what the creators chose is canon". DC won't change what Priest established.

The one who should be made to speak out about it is Wolfman if he never made a statement.

Man I've got to re-read Priest's Deathstroke, but refresh my memory, I remember that he shifted the story a lot in a way that felt like it made sense or was plausible for today's world without fundamentally destroying the DNA of the original story of Deathstroke, but I can't remember the hows.