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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Basically treat this as it’s own continuity and don’t try to get it to match the actual storylines Ridley is pulling from. This is its own separate beast with Ridley using continuity to tell his story.
    When they're taking straight scenes from the comics it's hard to treat it as anything other than a commentary on its direct references. It's not really about canonicity anyhow. The entire point is that it's trying to tell history from a different perspective but I think that's a lot weaker when stuff is made up to suit it.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The stuff with Roy is largely made up or context is thrown away, for whoever cares. Ridley glossed over the actual contents of the comics to create a more antagonistic relationship with the Titans for Mal and Karen to talk about.

    A big one is that scene where Roy insults Mal and Mal punches him. They treat that as some horrible mistreatment but in that very comic Roy immediately feels like crap because he was just making a tongue-in-cheek joke and didn't know it would hurt Mal so personally. He spends the rest of the comic beating himself up over the fact that he upset his friend with a bad joke, not accepting the other Titans saying it wasn't such a big deal, trying to get to Mal to apologize, and threatening to quit the team over it rather than ostracize Mal. It is probably the actual single time in Titans history where Mal was given the most respect and equal treatment by his comrades outside of his first appearance.

    Boiling it down to "Roy's an ******* junkie who mistreated Mal" is probably the most opposite take you can have of that issue.
    The story is being told from Mal and Karen's perspective. Roy isn't going to be written in a flattering light since he, unintentionally or not, did something that made Mal upset and the story does acknowledge that neither Mal nor Karen are free from their own biases either.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    DC should continue this series. I wonder who we will see next? Cyborg? There is so much potential here, especially as the characters move through the decades. I would love to see a similar retrospective on Amazing Man (all three generations), Vixen, Bronze Tiger, Mr Terrific, Tempest/Joshua Clay, Hotspot, Freedom Beast, Dr Mist and that's without getting into the Milestone characters.
    The concept of this series seems to be to look at past events from the view point of the featured characters. And sofar there seems also to be a focus on Bronze Age Comics.

    Out of the ones you named Cyborg, Vixen and the first Amazing Man, seem the most likely to me. The Rest is to new or to detached form any more important, run/team/event.

    John Steward seems also a very likely candidate.

    Btw. the next issue is about Katana, so it is not only about black characters.

  4. #214
    Ultimate Member sifighter's Avatar
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    I don’t remember which interview but I’m pretty sure Ridley said that after Black Lightning and Mal & Karen that it will be Katana, Renee Montoya The Question, and the Final issue will be Black Lightning’s daughter Thunder.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
    Words to live by.

  5. #215
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    I don’t remember which interview but I’m pretty sure Ridley said that after Black Lightning and Mal & Karen that it will be Katana, Renee Montoya The Question, and the Final issue will be Black Lightning’s daughter Thunder.
    You know after how she hijacked Lois Lane's own book, I'm probably dropping this book after 3 if that issue doesn't blow me away. I'm a bit over Montoya right now.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Pretty much this. It's essentially a riff on Pre-Crisis DC leading into post-Crisis. This doesn't really work as part of the main line. Black label has enabled it to do its own thing which helps this a lot.
    Agreed. But admitting that it's a new reality based on the 70's/80's DCU (though I guess they'll be heading into the 90's and 00's in later issues) I'd still like some consistency, especially if we're meant to be viewing this as the history of DC's hero on a 'real world timeline'.

    Like for instance, in Black Lightning's issue, he talks about how Superman showing up was such a game-changer. But in this issue, Karen alludes to how Clark was already active as a hero at Kara's age - all but stating out loud a Superboy career. Not to mention stuff like the Teen Titans being established in 1970 in this issue while the Justice League was formed in 1976 as per last issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    I don’t remember which interview but I’m pretty sure Ridley said that after Black Lightning and Mal & Karen that it will be Katana, Renee Montoya The Question, and the Final issue will be Black Lightning’s daughter Thunder.
    If they were to expand this series further I suppose John Stewart would be an obvious one, though so much of his career has been spent in space so I'm not sure how much focus they'll be able to keep on real-world events on earth.

    Vixen too.

  7. #217
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Pretty much this. It's essentially a riff on Pre-Crisis DC leading into post-Crisis. This doesn't really work as part of the main line. Black label has enabled it to do its own thing which helps this a lot.
    It not being in continuity doesn't mean that it can't have a long term effect on characters that it writers about. Teen Titans franchise is struggling as it is. Having a story, Black Label or not, about how Teen Titans are a bunch of assholes is not going to help them.

    There is also a limit on how far "unreliable narrator" can justify things. Sure, you can say that our narrators just didn't see what Roy was going thru, but then there are facts that you can't spin around. Like marriage for example, nobody showed up for their marriage while everyone was there for Donna's. Or how they never bothered to call them for Titan reunions. Or how nobody came to help with children being killed in Atlanta. All these little things make Titans (and Superman/Justice League in previous issue) look bad.

  8. #218
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Next issue will probably cover Superman death, I'm already waiting for Katana thinking "who cares?" or something like that.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    It not being in continuity doesn't mean that it can't have a long term effect on characters that it writers about. Teen Titans franchise is struggling as it is. Having a story, Black Label or not, about how Teen Titans are a bunch of assholes is not going to help them.

    There is also a limit on how far "unreliable narrator" can justify things. Sure, you can say that our narrators just didn't see what Roy was going thru, but then there are facts that you can't spin around. Like marriage for example, nobody showed up for their marriage while everyone was there for Donna's. Or how they never bothered to call them for Titan reunions. Or how nobody came to help with children being killed in Atlanta. All these little things make Titans (and Superman/Justice League in previous issue) look bad.
    And how is that John Ridley's fault???

    here is this book of Teen Titans starring Dick as Robin, Donna Troy, Roy as Speedy, Garth as Aqualad and Wally as Kid Flash at??? Oh that is right it DOESN'T exist.

    Tim Drake is Robin, Kaldur is Aqualad, there is no Speedy, Wallace is Kid Flash and Donna Troy is still a mess. So what are these longer term effects?

    There long tern effects that the EVIL John Ridley has done that will make EVERYONE forget how many of them got BUTCHERED in events?
    Henderson run that saw the writer get Static's name wrong TWICE.
    Krul run that featured fake A listers.
    New 52 version that nobody know if they were the first or second team
    The badly done version that followed up till now.
    Heroes in Crisis that was nothing more than kill Teen Titan alum.
    Wally West character trashing.
    Lets not discuss Titans run.

    But lets say John Ridley's ONE book is worst than 2006-2020 Titans era.

    That must mean Ridley has way more power than Johns, Jim Lee, Didio, Henderson, McKeever, Lobdell, Arnett, Krul and Tom King.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The story is being told from Mal and Karen's perspective. Roy isn't going to be written in a flattering light since he, unintentionally or not, did something that made Mal upset and the story does acknowledge that neither Mal nor Karen are free from their own biases either.
    They go over every single part of that comic (the gargoyle, the horncaller stuff) BESIDES Roy actually being a caring friend. Please go read it if you don't believe me. Ridley chose only to excise Roy being a good person who supported Mal more than the other Titans so he could toss around the Junkie line a lot. They did a scene by scene breakdown aside from the part that, of course, undermines the point. And, again, he completely made up whatever stuff he was saying about Garth. Garth left on his own accord despite the team trying to get him to stay.

    The point of this is to finger the Titans as a bunch of assholes and, because they're assholes, they clearly mistreated Mal and Karen. And he makes stuff up to do it because they weren't actually assholes to Mal and Karen from any real in story reading. The exclusion of Mal and Karen later on is a much better point (though there is context ignored there, it's context that's reasonable for Karen and Mal to be ignorant of) than just raving that Roy is a junkie who ruined the Titans and mistreated Mal and that Garth was ostracized and mistreated by the team. It's just plain lies.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-31-2021 at 12:20 PM.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The stuff with Roy is largely made up or context is thrown away, for whoever cares. Ridley glossed over the actual contents of the comics to create a more antagonistic relationship with the Titans for Mal and Karen to talk about.

    A big one is that scene where Roy insults Mal and Mal punches him. They treat that as some horrible mistreatment but in that very comic Roy immediately feels like crap because he was just making a tongue-in-cheek joke and didn't know it would hurt Mal so personally. He spends the rest of the comic beating himself up over the fact that he upset his friend with a bad joke, not accepting the other Titans saying it wasn't such a big deal, trying to get to Mal to apologize, and threatening to quit the team over it rather than ostracize Mal. It is probably the actual single time in Titans history where Mal was given the most respect and equal treatment by his comrades outside of his first appearance.

    Boiling it down to "Roy's an ******* junkie who mistreated Mal" is probably the most opposite take you can have of that issue.

    Also they made up stuff like Roy just coming in and breaking up the Titans. Or, like, everything with Garth. All that is straight made up. As a nominal fan of the Teen Titans there's certainly a point to be made about the revolving door cast and the inconsistency with which characters like Mal and Karen were given respect and appearances. But I'm not big on a long list of straight up pure revisionism just to **** on what were pretty good stories at the time. It was the only comic at the time even giving significant feature time to black characters and is suddenly **** on it because Mal and Karen were the only black characters to give a retrospective view of it. So the comic that takes the big, inclusive step gets **** on it for doing so. A lot of dissonance.

    I really liked the first issue. And I even like a lot of the character voice work done here and a lot of the other perspective stuff (like Mal's feelings about his various personas). But the weird lies to make the Titans look like ignorant, racist jerks is super offputting.
    Thank you for providing this context.

  12. #222
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    It not being in continuity doesn't mean that it can't have a long term effect on characters that it writers about. Teen Titans franchise is struggling as it is. Having a story, Black Label or not, about how Teen Titans are a bunch of assholes is not going to help them.

    There is also a limit on how far "unreliable narrator" can justify things. Sure, you can say that our narrators just didn't see what Roy was going thru, but then there are facts that you can't spin around. Like marriage for example, nobody showed up for their marriage while everyone was there for Donna's. Or how they never bothered to call them for Titan reunions. Or how nobody came to help with children being killed in Atlanta. All these little things make Titans (and Superman/Justice League in previous issue) look bad.
    It could be worst, they could get the treatment Adam Strange is getting from Tom King right now.

    The Titans have two very popular cartoons, a tv show, one of the most acclaimed runs on DC's history, a few elseworlds books, etc. Adam Strange don't have that, King's Strange Adventures definitely be the entry point to the character for a lot of people, it's very well critically received and most likely will become the most notorious thing about the character.
    I don't want to give spoilers about it, but I don't see anyone becoming a fan of the character after Strange Adventures, but the other way around.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    It could be worst, they could get the treatment Adam Strange is getting from Tom King right now.

    The Titans have two very popular cartoons, a tv show, one of the most acclaimed runs on DC's history, a few elseworlds books, etc. Adam Strange don't have that, King's Strange Adventures definitely be the entry point to the character for a lot of people, it's very well critically received and most likely will become the most notorious thing about the character.
    I don't want to give spoilers about it, but I don't see anyone becoming a fan of the character after Strange Adventures, but the other way around.
    This is incredibly off topic.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The stuff with Roy is largely made up or context is thrown away, for whoever cares. Ridley glossed over the actual contents of the comics to create a more antagonistic relationship with the Titans for Mal and Karen to talk about.

    A big one is that scene where Roy insults Mal and Mal punches him. They treat that as some horrible mistreatment but in that very comic Roy immediately feels like crap because he was just making a tongue-in-cheek joke and didn't know it would hurt Mal so personally. He spends the rest of the comic beating himself up over the fact that he upset his friend with a bad joke, not accepting the other Titans saying it wasn't such a big deal, trying to get to Mal to apologize, and threatening to quit the team over it rather than ostracize Mal. It is probably the actual single time in Titans history where Mal was given the most respect and equal treatment by his comrades outside of his first appearance.

    Boiling it down to "Roy's an ******* junkie who mistreated Mal" is probably the most opposite take you can have of that issue.

    Also they made up stuff like Roy just coming in and breaking up the Titans. Or, like, everything with Garth. All that is straight made up. As a nominal fan of the Teen Titans there's certainly a point to be made about the revolving door cast and the inconsistency with which characters like Mal and Karen were given respect and appearances. But I'm not big on a long list of straight up pure revisionism just to **** on what were pretty good stories at the time. It was the only comic at the time even giving significant feature time to black characters and is suddenly **** on it because Mal and Karen were the only black characters to give a retrospective view of it. So the comic that takes the big, inclusive step gets **** on it for doing so. A lot of dissonance.

    I really liked the first issue. And I even like a lot of the character voice work done here and a lot of the other perspective stuff (like Mal's feelings about his various personas). But the weird lies to make the Titans look like ignorant, racist jerks is super offputting.
    Ummm your major two points here about Roy and Garth are flat-out wrong I'm sorry to say.

    1. Roy DID make that ******* "second-rate" comment to Mal. And Mal immediately ran off and had his adventure with the Angel of Death. However bad Roy felt for saying it, or threatening to quit the team over it, Mal (and certainly Karen, who is relating that part) were not privy to. The two never even address the issue again although Roy does offer Mal a sort of mea culpa at the end by inviting him to join his band.

    2. All of that stuff with Garth is NOT made up either. It's all straight out of Teen Titans (version 1) #51. Garth DID have a psychosomatic breakdown. It WAS caused by his inferiority complex vis a vis the other Titans. And Roy DID call him a "tuna-livered coward" to his face for quitting.

  15. #225
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    This was another great issue. I'm so happy to see Mal and Karen get some LONG overdue spotlight.

    As DC's first black (super-)hero and super-heroine, they deserve much better than the shabby treatment they've received over the years.

    This was a great counter-point story to last issue too. Jeff lost his wife and family and even his sense of self to make it as a hero; whereas Mal found happiness and success as a husband, father and business-owner, but got kind of left behind as a hero. I'm happy for Mal (and that final page of his was beautifully written) but man, he had a sad journey.

    Obviously, a lot of that sadness is due to behind-the-scenes/editorial decision-making so I guess it was inevitable, but still interesting, that this issue would be a lot more "meta" than the last one. That whole indictment of the "Jericho" fiasco was cleverly written and packed a powerful punch. I wonder if Marv Wolfman and Neal Adams have read this issue and appreciate Ridley's spin on that moment in DC history?

    I'm not sure I understand why some people are critical of the inclusion of the Atlanta baby murders story? First of all, it's obviously all from Karen's point of view, and as last issue demonstrated and this issue explicitly spells out, the narrative of this series is not to be taken as 100% gospel. So we don't know that Batman or Superman or whoever weren't actually investigating that crime. And secondly, even if they weren't, that's no indictment of them as heroes. Super-heroes can't be everywhere (especially a totally other city like Atlanta) and we know there are loads of crimes and killings like this one that occur in the DC Universe. It's just weird to me that people are fixating on this one event when the series has been filled with other real life events like the Munich Olympics Massacre and the anti-busing riots.

    It's interesting that both issues have had little interludes about Supergirl. We know that Ridley originally intended to devote a whole issue to her so I wonder if her story will be sprinkled throughout the rest of the issues instead.

    Man, the art in this series has been so good too. Such great use of negative space and panels. Not to mention all the great references to older covers and artwork.

    I hope this series does well sales-wise (although I imagine it will probably do better as a collected trade).

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