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  1. #151
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    spoilers:
    I just realized that in the Iran hostage crisis, 52 Americans were held hostage and DC likes the number 52.
    end of spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    An aphorism.

    I must admit, while I like any good nerd love the old Stan Lee one-liner from Uncle Ben, it's an aphorism that I don't think has a lot of real clarity. What does Ben Parker mean when he says that? "With great power comes great responsibility." In this usage, great indicates scale. But what does he mean when he says "power", and what does he mean when he says "responsibility" - because both of those concepts are scalable, nebulous, and frankly mean different things to every single individual and organism and atom in existence.

    Does he mean to imply that with "Great Strength comes the need for Restraint"? No. But it's a totally legit interpretation. It's also basically the Superman Argument, and thus, by extension, the JLA argument. Superman has the most POWER in the comic book "POWERS" sense, and thus has a responsibility to save the Earth from cosmic threats, but then you get the grey line of "does he have a responsibility to save the world from itself?" Which is nice when they juggle every once in a while but makes pretty boring Superman stories.

    Or does he mean to imply that with "Great Influence comes the need to Influence Others, Positively"? The Wealthy Savior - but I don't necessarily mean "financially wealthy", although that's one tact one might take, one takeaway somebody might get. Money = Power, thus Wealth = Responsibility, a slippery slope away from "I am entitled to make decisions for those with less." He's so strong, but how could Spidey, a 16 year old kid, be responsible for the actions and safety of so many others? Grown-ass adults? Officials! Scientists! You name it. He can't be. Initially he couldn't even be tried as an adult.

    Or did he mean "With Great Competence & Ability Comes a Need to Step Up and Do Good and Fight Evil Where Other Men Dare Not?" THIS is of course what Ben Parker meant. It's a variation of the "Evil wins when good men do nothing" philosophy. This is an old bit of noble acumen that's not necessarily distilled down to its purest, most articulate, unable to be misconstrued reduction, but it's part of HERO TALES back beyond the Middle Ages and earlier, the notion of STEPPING UP, basically. We use words like noble, self-sacrificing, step up, do the right thing, and on down the line. But it's ostensibly more about like ... be the OPPOSITE of a BULLY. If you're bigger, tougher, smarter, more capable than the other guy ... don't punch down. Hell, defend the rest.

    Captain America symbolizes this, too. Generally speaking, Super-Heroes who wear RED & BLUE almost ALWAYS represent this. Superman, Captain America, Spider-Man, Supergirl. It's as likely to be the case as a Super-Villain that wears GREEN & PURPLE being a Mad Scientist/Diabolical Genius.
    Minor thing. Ben didn't say "With great power, comes great responsibility". Not in the comics, anyway. Peter is actually the one who says that in the comics.

    Otherwise, I agree.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 11-26-2020 at 03:08 AM.

  2. #152
    Incredible Member Toonstrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    An aphorism.

    I must admit, while I like any good nerd love the old Stan Lee one-liner from Uncle Ben, it's an aphorism that I don't think has a lot of real clarity. What does Ben Parker mean when he says that? "With great power comes great responsibility." In this usage, great indicates scale. But what does he mean when he says "power", and what does he mean when he says "responsibility" - because both of those concepts are scalable, nebulous, and frankly mean different things to every single individual and organism and atom in existence.

    Does he mean to imply that with "Great Strength comes the need for Restraint"? No. But it's a totally legit interpretation. It's also basically the Superman Argument, and thus, by extension, the JLA argument. Superman has the most POWER in the comic book "POWERS" sense, and thus has a responsibility to save the Earth from cosmic threats, but then you get the grey line of "does he have a responsibility to save the world from itself?" Which is nice when they juggle every once in a while but makes pretty boring Superman stories.

    Or does he mean to imply that with "Great Influence comes the need to Influence Others, Positively"? The Wealthy Savior - but I don't necessarily mean "financially wealthy", although that's one tact one might take, one takeaway somebody might get. Money = Power, thus Wealth = Responsibility, a slippery slope away from "I am entitled to make decisions for those with less." He's so strong, but how could Spidey, a 16 year old kid, be responsible for the actions and safety of so many others? Grown-ass adults? Officials! Scientists! You name it. He can't be. Initially he couldn't even be tried as an adult.

    Or did he mean "With Great Competence & Ability Comes a Need to Step Up and Do Good and Fight Evil Where Other Men Dare Not?" THIS is of course what Ben Parker meant. It's a variation of the "Evil wins when good men do nothing" philosophy. This is an old bit of noble acumen that's not necessarily distilled down to its purest, most articulate, unable to be misconstrued reduction, but it's part of HERO TALES back beyond the Middle Ages and earlier, the notion of STEPPING UP, basically. We use words like noble, self-sacrificing, step up, do the right thing, and on down the line. But it's ostensibly more about like ... be the OPPOSITE of a BULLY. If you're bigger, tougher, smarter, more capable than the other guy ... don't punch down. Hell, defend the rest.

    Captain America symbolizes this, too. Generally speaking, Super-Heroes who wear RED & BLUE almost ALWAYS represent this. Superman, Captain America, Spider-Man, Supergirl. It's as likely to be the case as a Super-Villain that wears GREEN & PURPLE being a Mad Scientist/Diabolical Genius.
    This is how I've always read it. Spider-Man feels responsibility for lives lost under his watch as it were. Even in Civil War the movie when asked he says "if you can do what I do, and don't, and bad things happen, they happen becuase of you." Thsts just a part of who he is.

  3. #153
    BCB 4sake Baned's Avatar
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    An Amazing start/statement best comics I’ve read in 8 years
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  4. #154
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    It was great!

    I'm typically a critic of injecting overt politics into comic-books (especially in the current political and media landscape), but The Other History of the DC Universe is undoubtedly the way to do it if one must. Themes of urban decay, socioeconomic disparities and white privelege are addressed, but not as part of some 'agenda' or attempt at preachiness, but simply through the lived experiences and personal opinions and biases of Jefferson Pierce. Of course Pierce would regard the Justice League as a bunch of ineffectual elites! It makes perfect sense in context. Hell, I actually found myself agreeing with a lot of Pierce's observations, even the ones I knew weren't 100% true.

    I particularly enjoyed the critique of Superman and the idea that he was the savior in a "familiar and pleasing form" to white America...as well as Pierce's later realization that Superman's true weakness is a need to be liked and accepted by people. It's a great deconstruction of the popular 'mainstream' conception of the character. I loved Pierce's retort to Superman that he should "demolish a few tenements" in Suicide Squad...a neat tip off the hat to the Golden Age Superman who's actually a lot more the kind of hero that Black Lightning is here. His rumination that "Batman gets to be the Dark Knight...I'm just a vigilante" reminded me of the meme going around a short while back that Batman has the lower half of his face uncovered to reassure cops that he's a white guy

    The chronology was interesting, and obviously built around Black Lightning's real publishing history. There's an increasing trend of these 'real-time' approaches to superhero universes that I find pretty refreshing. I enjoyed the idea of the Justice League being formed in the biccentennial year as a kind of celebration of American power even as society was decaying.

    I'm looking forward to further chapters of this story. I'm kinda curious as to when they'll be set though. In an interview, Ridley said that they'll be going up and down the timeline and covering some of the same events from different perspectives. I'm guessing with Mal and Karen we're going to re-explore the 70's and 80's to cover the Teen Titans history. Dunno about Tatsu, but I'm guessing with Rene Montoya we'll be exploring the 90's. And with Pierce's daughter, probably the 2000's.

  5. #155
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I particularly enjoyed the critique of Superman and the idea that he was the savior in a "familiar and pleasing form" to white America...as well as Pierce's later realization that Superman's true weakness is a need to be liked and accepted by people. It's a great deconstruction of the popular 'mainstream' conception of the character. I loved Pierce's retort to Superman that he should "demolish a few tenements" in Suicide Squad...a neat tip off the hat to the Golden Age Superman who's actually a lot more the kind of hero that Black Lightning is here.
    Makes it sounds like another book that takes jabs at Superman (very, very common in DC for a while now). So freaking tired of that. Sure, there's plenty more to the book than that, but that's a major turnoff to me. Also strongly disagree with that conception of Superman, too, so there's that. I loathe what the comics did with Superman and Suicide Slum very much, and have complained about it numerous times before. Definitely not getting this one. So thanks for the info.

    The Mal/Karen one was the one I was interested in. Will definitely be keeping any eye out to see what kind of book it is. But if it's going to insult the other Titans, I'll take a pass.

    I don't like deconstructions and critiques of superheros as a genre (something I commented on recently on BWL thread), so if it's they're all going to be that, it's just not my thing, no matter how well-done.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-03-2020 at 10:54 AM.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Superman's true weakness is a need to be liked and accepted by people.
    I am not gonna go into the race issue.But,this is fundamentally my problem and issue with The superman character as he is.This has always been the root cause of my tirades.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 12-03-2020 at 11:00 AM.

  7. #157
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Superman's true weakness is a need to be liked and accepted by people.
    I am not gonna go into the race issue.But,this is fundamentally my problem and issue with The superman character as he is.This has always been the root cause of my tirades.
    And to me me, this is fundamentally not what Superman is at all. And depicting him that way is always used to trash the character and diminish his heroism and make him less so some other hero can look better.

  8. #158
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I mean, even if I could accept to a certain degree Superman has a desire to be liked and accepted by people, I would never assume it would go to an extent to where he wouldn't do the right thing or help people who need helping.

  9. #159
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    And to me me, this is fundamentally not what Superman is at all. And depicting him that way is always used to trash the character and diminish his heroism and make him less so some other hero can look better.
    Be that as a may,That it is just mischaracterisation or false portayal.I don't get the feel that clark would do something that is'nt percieved good. but,that was actually right thing to do.His whole boyscout persona feels just fakery so that he can be liked by people,Sometimes.The guy feels too safe to be real.He feels too much like two face,sometimes.So,i am never going to enjoy portayals like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, even if I could accept to a certain degree Superman has a desire to be liked and accepted by people, I would never assume it would go to an extent to where he wouldn't do the right thing or help people who need helping.
    Yes,this might be true.But still, clark sometimes entirely comes of as two face.As a fan of phantom,luffy..etc,These guys don't give two hoot what others thought of them.It's just hard for me to grasp clark's thought process as he is meant to be this great hero.A hero for me is meant to be above the current societal standards, morally.He is supposed to be the one that sets a new one.He isn't the one that follows it.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 12-03-2020 at 11:28 AM.

  10. #160
    Ultimate Member Robotman's Avatar
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    I wasn’t happy with that characterization of Supes, but you have to remember that Black Lightning has a pretty negative outlook on the world at this time. He’s a man who has experienced a ton of injustice throughout his life so he has a skewed view of mainstream superheroes. You can see that by the way he talks about John Stewart early on.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yes,this might be true.But still, clark sometimes entirely comes of as two face.As a fan of phantom,luffy..etc,These guys don't give two hoot what others thought of them.It's just hard for me to grasp clark's thought process as he is meant to be this great hero.A hero for me is meant to be above the current societal standards, morally.He is supposed to be the one that sets a new one.He isn't the one that follows it.
    Well, he's definitely a multi-faceted character. I think he is very much above in the respects that count, just in a different way from how Luffy operates because they're different characters.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I wasn’t happy with that characterization of Supes, but you have to remember that Black Lightning has a pretty negative outlook on the world at this time. He’s a man who has experienced a ton of injustice throughout his life so he has a skewed view of mainstream superheroes. You can see that by the way he talks about John Stewart early on.
    Pretty much. This is Black Lightning's perspective on Superman, at that point of time. Even in the narration he suggests that later in life he had a different perspective on these heroes. But in those early days, long before Jefferson came to know Superman and the other A-listers personally, he had that opinion of them.

    The arc of his 'relationship' with John Stewart is a great example of how the story doesn't treat Jefferson as always being 'right'.

    That said, this particular perception of Superman is very much one a fair number of people have about the character off late, so it is a way to address it in-universe. Given that a future issue will be dealing with spoilers:
    the Death of Superman
    end of spoilers I am legitimately curious to see how Ridley continues to tackle the Man of Steel.

  13. #163
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    That said, this particular perception of Superman is very much one a fair number of people have about the character off late, so it is a way to address it in-universe.
    And this is why it is a bit hard for me to accept this whole thing as just BL's opinion. It does feel like a broader statement on Superman that is not challenged in this issue at all. Maybe Ridley will provide a different perspective on Superman in following issues, but if not then it will be just another case of DC being ok with negative Superman portrayals.

    For example, you don't really follow the page with Reagan and Lets Make America Great Again slogan with a page telling how life was going great for Superman by accident. Why you'd do that if not to link Superman to Reagan and Trump?

  14. #164

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    Unlike other deconstruction/criticism of Superman where we are supposed to accept said criticisms at face value, 'The Otherside' makes it clear that this is Jeff's perspective and that he is not always on point with his assessments such was the case with John Stewart. Speaking of whom, I normally hate tying John Stewart with Xanshi but this is the only time I've seen that particular plot thread being followed up well. There have been other comics that tried to show us Superman's white privilege but this is the only time I recall this being done well. Jeff isn't 100% critical of Superman all the time either. Even in their first meeting, he did sympathize with Superman being the 'last of his tribe' and later on says that he was happy that Superman found someone he could connect to through Supergirl.

  15. #165
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Yeah as a Superman fan I have no complaints with how he was handled here. Plenty of other heroes got a thrashing too, like Jeff openly side-eyeing Batman for asking Jeff to the token black man on the Outsiders because Bats needed someone to go and pretend to be a hostage’s brother, and Jeff was the only black guy Bruce could find.

    And John Stewart took the brunt of the criticism, with Jeff’s big arc in the issue being him realizing he’s been a dick and needs to improve.

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