The Other history of the D.C.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I thought today's issue was very meaty. Tatsu's voice was interesting as it felt more self aware than Jefferson/Mal/Karen's.

[Avi]

Shiva vs Tatsu was cool as well. I liked how Ridley described Shiva's motivations and how Tatsu wins by doing the unexpected.

Shiva is now another character I would love to see as a pov character.

It's more coincidence but I liked that just seeing Jefferson felt as if the one-shots are truly tied together.

What I noticed when Tatsu talks about Superman's death is the total absence of Wonder Woman as an icon so far, which isn't surprising because it's history, but it's still telling.

Man I've got to re-read Priest's Deathstroke, but refresh my memory, I remember that he shifted the story a lot in a way that felt like it made sense or was plausible for today's world without fundamentally destroying the DNA of the original story of Deathstroke, but I can't remember the hows.

He certainly didn't take the gaslighting out of Slade's character. It's been a while since I read it too, can't quite remember Tara's new origin, but she was a lot more active and allowed to be angry at Slade.

Slade being reprehensible is part of why I like reading a well-written Deathstroke story. He's a bad man. Like, ethically bad. His struggle tends to be that perverse inverse where no matter how hard he tries to be a straight up bad guy he's always stepping over the line and doing something good, sticking his toe up to the line where he goes from irredeemable to ... oh shit he's almost maybe a little redeemable, and how that makes us feel as readers or how that makes heroic characters feel about him is interesting storytelling, and storytelling worth telling. But yeah - no joke about passing him off as some bad-ass anti-hero (particularly so they can corporatize/use his likeness in other media and conveniently ignore the fact that his HORRIBLENESS is in his DNA from his very first appearances in Wolfman's run.

Victim-blaming Terra is a good angle here for the ruthless approach.

[...]

Dick Grayson has been raped twice under different pretenses and one wonders why his relationships for the last several runs are a sh**-show.

[...]

Fully agree with that take on Slade. He's a bad man. Always will be. Every attempt at goodness is betrayed by himself to the point at which the attempt at being good feels like a ploy in itself.

On the topic of Dick Grayson. I just think it's interesting that one of those r*pes was written by Wolfman. And then decades later, Wolfman introduced Liu during his Nightwing run. She is supposed to be the reason why Dick can't stay in a commited relationship because she only slept with him and pretended to be in love with him in hopes of stealing Wayne Tech. It's implied that she is an adult while Dick wasn't.

Add to that the problems with Raven & Wally, Raven & Dick, Donna & Terry and it's a wonder Wolfman never got as much backlash as Devin Grayson did.

[king81992]

Shiva vs Tatsu was cool as well. I liked how Ridley described Shiva's motivations and how Tatsu wins by doing the unexpected.

Shiva is now another character I would love to see as a pov character.

It's more coincidence but I liked that just seeing Jefferson felt as if the one-shots are truly tied together.

What I noticed when Tatsu talks about Superman's death is the total absence of Wonder Woman as an icon so far, which isn't surprising because it's history, but it's still telling.



He certainly didn't take the gaslighting out of Slade's character. It's been a while since I read it too, can't quite remember Tara's new origin, but she was a lot more active and allowed to be angry at Slade.



Fully agree with that take on Slade. He's a bad man. Always will be. Every attempt at goodness is betrayed by himself to the point at which the attempt at being good feels like a ploy in itself.

On the topic of Dick Grayson. I just think it's interesting that one of those r*pes was written by Wolfman. And then decades later, Wolfman introduced Liu during his Nightwing run. She is supposed to be the reason why Dick can't stay in a commited relationship because she only slept with him and pretended to be in love with him in hopes of stealing Wayne Tech. It's implied that she is an adult while Dick wasn't.

Add to that the problems with Raven & Wally, Raven & Dick, Donna & Terry and it's a wonder Wolfman never got as much backlash as Devin Grayson did.

I would love to see a POV from Terra's perspective in this series(or in general) but she's apparently dead in this book.

[lemonpeace]

I just finished my readthrough and I think this is my favorite book of the series so far, followed closely by the Jefferson book. I feel this one, more than the others, was the most thorough exploration of the characters evolving philosophy and I love that it felt intentionally so due to the character telling the story; Tatsu is hardened in a different way from her experiences, she's disciplined and therefore more self-aware, so we grasp her story far more cleanly. it's some pretty stellar character work on Ridley's part.

and these pages? man...



this moment felt like the moment that defined who Katana is, and the particular brand of badass she is (that scare you out a window for stabbing me kind). If there ever were to be a Katana movie, this moment has to be in it.

each book in this series, so far, has proven itself to be essential reading for these characters.

[king of hybrids]

That actually reminds me, it’s only been since the new 52 that Soultaker’s been more than just a sword, right?

[lemonpeace]

That actually reminds me, it’s only been since the new 52 that Soultaker’s been more than just a sword, right?

I'm fairly certain the idea that the Soultaker was literally cursed and did steal souls was introduced before flashpoint/new52, but the idea that it actually was more overtly magical beyond the souls has been something that's happened on and off since just before and post-Flashpoint. right now the set-up is the sword just cursed and Tatsu's the one with magical properties (homo magi).

[Aahz]

Soultaker has allways been Magic since Katana was first introduced, I not really sure why it was said in this book that it wasn't.

I'm also not sure why he claims that she never had any martial arts training ...

[Aahz]

Ridley going straight for Slade's throat is fantastic. It truly was swept under the rug. Victim blaming, as Ridley says.
It was strange to see Slade among the heroes mourning Superman after that. I wonder if that was deliberate?

I'm not really sure why that part was even in the book, I don't think that Deathstroke and the Outsiders ever met during that time, and I think anyone apparat from Deathstroke and Terra knows what exactly happened between the two.

[king of hybrids]

Even if Tara was the duplicitous sociopath Slade claimed to her to be, she was an underaged supremely troubled child while he was old enough to be her grandfather with a long and established track record for manipulation, gaslighting, abuse, coercion and being a lying liar who lies.

Tara being bad doesn’t negate Slade being a monster in the slightest

[king81992]

Even if Tara was the duplicitous sociopath Slade claimed to her to be, she was an underaged supremely troubled child while he was old enough to be her grandfather with a long and established track record for manipulation, gaslighting, abuse, coercion and being a lying liar who lies.

Tara being bad doesn’t negate Slade being a monster in the slightest

This is what Deathstroke's fans, apologists and Wolfman fail to understand.

[Frontier]

this was something I never considered. at this point it's a pretty common take that Batman may or may not be indirectly killing people with his tactics but i never occured to me that perhaps Gothamites know this but (like Gordan and the Batfamily identities) they selectively choose to believe he doesn't. that also explains a major problem I've had about Batman and criminals, why they would be so hysterically scared of a man who will go out of his way not to kill? Criminals would know that even though he "doesn't kill", Batman has probably put a few of their friends on a shirt just due to a Batarang nicking an artery or falling asleep and not waking up from a concussion. I like the idea that Batman may wanna believe he's "not killing people", and he even actively tries not to kill, but ultimately him and all of Gotham know on some level that's just part of his mythology; the man, the myth, has real bodies.

I think this is just another instance where a character brings their own, maybe more realistic, perspective to another hero and their world that doesn't necesarilly have any bearing on the actual reality of the hero because they personally can't fathom or really understand it because of their personal perspective.

As far as how Batman can still be scary, a playthrough of an Arkham game shows how effective Batman can be in instilling fear with him picking thugs off one by one or being an unstoppable fighting machine who can take down a dozen goons at once.

I don't think Batman could operate knowing he might actually be killing people. I don't think the people he work with would fail to be self-aware enough to not realize that without calling him out on it.

Honestly, I am surprised that 'cancel culture' has not gone after Slade yet. If he got cancelled, I would not be mad.

Does Deathstroke need to be canceled? He's usually a villain or someone begrudgingly tolerated in dire circumstances.

Even that animated film, Knights and Dragons, made it apparent how flawed and messed up he was beneath his belief that he's not a bad guy.

[lemonpeace]

Soultaker has allways been Magic since Katana was first introduced, I not really sure why it was said in this book that it wasn't.

I'm also not sure why he claims that she never had any martial arts training ...

these aren't claims, it's the story...

putting aside the story isn't positioned to be any particular canon, the story beats do plausibly align with Katana's journey; they've just recontextualized the vents, as is the premise of the series. most of Katana's magic and training have been pretty nebulously applied, more in service of Asian superhero tropes than of the character, so turning that idea on it's head and recontextualizing it as her playing up those stereotypes for her mythology (similar to Batman) is a better spin on her character and pretty clever commentary. you strip away the mystical oriental ornamentation and you have no choice but get to the root of this character. no uber magic sword, no vague secret Japanese swordsmanship training, she had a sword, she had determination, and through the strength of her character she made it to where she is; all while leaving the door open to cultural, outworldly, and possibly mythical elements. I prefer that over her weeping at her sword while it wails "taaaatsuuuuuuuuuu...[cries in japanese]" and she goes "Maseoooooo..[is sorrowful in japanese]" for the umpteenth time.

[Frontier]

these aren't claims, it's the story...

putting aside the story isn't positioned to be any particular canon, the story beats do plausibly align with Katana's journey; they've just recontextualized the vents, as is the premise of the series. most of Katana's magic and training have been pretty nebulously applied, more in service of Asian superhero tropes than of the character, so turning that idea on it's head and recontextualizing it as her playing up those stereotypes for her mythology (similar to Batman) is a better spin on her character and pretty clever commentary. you strip away the mystical oriental ornamentation and you have no choice but get to the root of this character. no uber magic sword, no vague secret Japanese swordsmanship training, she had a sword, she had determination, and through the strength of her character she made it to where she is; all while leaving the door open to cultural, outworldly, and possibly mythical elements. I prefer that over her weeping at her sword while it wails "taaaatsuuuuuuuuuu...[cries in japanese]" and she goes "Maseoooooo..[is sorrowful in japanese]" for the umpteenth time.

Now they sound straight out of an anime .

[Vordan]

Another good issue. I liked how Ridley got rid of some of the cliches about “honor” or being a trained assassin. Curious to see how Ridley approaches the 00s next issue.

Man I've got to re-read Priest's Deathstroke, but refresh my memory, I remember that he shifted the story a lot in a way that felt like it made sense or was plausible for today's world without fundamentally destroying the DNA of the original story of Deathstroke, but I can't remember the hows.

He had it so Slade deliberately manipulated Terra, but wasn’t interested in her sexually, he just took advantage of her. Priest made sure you knew Slade was a scumbag though.

[lemonpeace]

I think this is just another instance where a character brings their own, maybe more realistic, perspective to another hero and their world that doesn't necesarilly have any bearing on the actual reality of the hero because they personally can't fathom or really understand it because of their personal perspective.

As far as how Batman can still be scary, a playthrough of an Arkham game shows how effective Batman can be in instilling fear with him picking thugs off one by one or being an unstoppable fighting machine who can take down a dozen goons at once.

I don't think Batman could operate knowing he might actually be killing people. I don't think the people he work with would fail to be self-aware enough to not realize that without calling him out on it.

as sifighter pointed out, the Victim's Syndicate confirms Katana's perception of the reality that is Batman. Batman's isn't Superman of the Flash or someone with the ability to perfectly incapacitate a criminal without overwhelming force, you can't kung fu a dozen guys without needing to be putting like 4 people down hard as fuck so you have the time to fight the other 8. Katana can "fathom" the reality of what violence does to a body, the point is we typically don't when reading Batman's story. we have a vested interest in believing he just puts them down for a little nap with his fist, because that's the myth, but if you are knocking out 100 guys a night for 100 nights straight, if you ain't dead someone else is or will be soon. Superman or one of the Flashs are unstoppable fight machines who can take down a dozen goons but the don't instill fear like Batman does because they are so powerful no matter how hard you fight them they'll be fine and you'll be fine. So in a world where those people exists it's clear it's not a matter of capability, it's a matter of brutality, and if you string together enough brutality then fatality is inevitable.

I also don't think Batman (if written well) would be ignorant as to not see that, nor should he be so emotionally fragile that he couldn't continue his mission (if he truly believed his mission is true) knowing the toll while always striving to lessen the casualties. The Batfamily are a direct extension of his mythology and philosophy but they, as well as the league, have confronted Batman for "going too far" "being crazy" "being extreme" to the point it's a trope. the problem is DC often skirts around getting too specific in order to keep him simple and "good". from a less romantic perspective, in working with Batman, that probably means they all have an understanding of the moral complexity of Batman's mission, just like Katana has her understanding and moves forward working with Batman accordingly. however, how Batman could do better isn't what this story is about, the point was expose that that reality is there and that's the lens through which his character is applied to Katana's story.

I think it’s definitely an interesting idea but I think it gets into another argument of intent. Do people probably get horribly injured or die later of injuries from Batman? Most likely and in fact we’ve actually seen this before with the Victim Syndicate, a team of villains who came after Batman because of how they suffered from incidents involved in his war against crime, either from villains or even Batman himself.

But Batman doesn’t go out of his way to kill criminals and I think that makes a difference. I’m not even bringing guns into this, because nothing is stopping him from just finishing them off with a batarang to the heart, a bloody beatdown, or whatever crazy techniques he’s learned in his life from the long line of mentors. But he doesn’t and I think that makes a difference to some people.

oh, I'm not arguing Batman's intentions (nor do i think Katana is either). it's more about the partical cost of his actions. No one would argue Batman is out to kill people, we know his cause is true (or else Katana wouldn't have worked with him) however we're being made to have to look at his actions, and the fallout from his actions, and note that contradiction. just like with John in Jefferson's book, or like the Atlanta murders in the Bumblebee & Mal book, we're dealing in uncomfortable truths and applying them to this universe where superheroes are added into the equation of the caste systems in reality. it's noting that there is a certain privilege of willful ignorance that comes with Batman and supporting his mythology.