Conan: Returning to Marvel

[JKtheMac]

I gotta disagree. Conan does change over time. It's subtle, and slow, and there is no moment of sudden reversal if beliefs or ideals or anything like that.

But compare Conan in Tower of the Elephant to The Hour of the Dragon. The first story is early in his adventures when he's pretty much just a thief, and the latter is when he's a king.

There's a definite sense of obligation and responsibility that Conan learns over time, as he spends more and more time as a leader as opposed to a simple warrior.

Other characters that have known him awhile even reference this, where in the past he'd toss himself into danger and trust skill and the to see him through, he becomes much more cautious when it comes to risking lives of men and subjects.

I am sure you would agree this is a very slow and gradual change, and that his core values don’t really change so much as his outlook and his role changes.

I have nothing whatsoever to go on so this is just my perception, but I always assumed the progression of Conan was based loosely on Beowulf. The way that old king Beowulf is an older and wiser guy who understands his responsibilities and how his heroism will inevitably lead to his death. In this respect there is change but it’s not really what we would now consider a character arc because we don’t see the change occurring over time because we don’t get stories that directly address the moments that change him.

If Aaron suddenly writes a story about how Conan learns to be more kingly by sacrificing an aspect of his dynamism then rightly people will call foul. That’s not how Conan stories traditionally work. Even this story has hints to me that we will get a Conan challenged over his core values or aspects, and if that is the case it will go against genre.

[JKtheMac]

I don’t know if I count as a kid (17), but I love pulp fiction.

Yep to me you do. I was hoping at least somebody would shout out and say this.

[JKtheMac]

In my experience, hardly any kids read periodical comics. If we're only counting recurring, month after month purchases, that number is even smaller. It's probably three percent of our total floppy sales. You couldn't be more right with your last sentence. Trying to sell a nine year old on the concept of "Here's issue #811, come back in a month for the next issue, and the story will wrap up four months after that, and it's four bucks an issue" is almost comically difficult. It works sometimes but that whole model is ridiculous to most kids who have every issue of everything ever already in their pocket on their phone. That's not even getting into the idea that paying for most entertainment is a foreign idea to them.

With the rise of Line Webtoons this is even more challenging. I have some fascinating stories to read that will be delivered regularly and not cost me anything other than my time. And I am 51, and don’t form new habits easily.

[Daniel22]

With the rise of Line Webtoons this is even more challenging. I have some fascinating stories to read that will be delivered regularly and not cost me anything other than my time. And I am 51, and don’t form new habits easily.

That's true. Even more so than the idea of paying for entertainment being largely foreign to kids is the idea of owning physical media. Most of the younger ones barely remember CD's and DVD's as being widespread.They at least know Netflix and Apple music costs money, even if they pirate their entertainment mostly anyway. But when they look at a month of Netflix costing less than the first two issues of Conan, the value just isn't there. The whole concept just doesn't make sense to most of the ones I've encountered. I also think they are more environmentally conscious than previous generations (or at least they believe so) and when you add in that additional aspect the idea of paper books is even more off putting.

I think the biggest hurdle for Conan reaching a new, young audience is the movies. Even more than the genre or medium, if they have exposure to Conan it's through the Momoa movie or maybe the Arnie movies. And if it's the Arnold movies they've probably seen them mocked. They're pretty ridiculous and when you add in how dated they are now I can't see many kids having positive associations between the movies and other Conan vehicles.

[dimo1]

Issue 2 was also a good read, though the witch and children from last issue barely play a role.
As in issue 1 Asrar‘s killing it on this title, love his energetic work.

[Knockagh]

I would agree that traditional monthly comics are a hard sell to today’s youth. But I certainly don’t think pulp books or fiction is unattractive to younger readers.
One interesting attempt to pull in younger readers is currently being tried by Black Library whose worlds, whilst not as old, suffer from a similar problem to Conan. In that they have a dedicated readership who have grown up with the characters and worlds in them and are still buying them. Trying to satisfy both the older (more wealthy) and the younger (essential if you want a future). I haven’t really seen comics trying anything similar to this. But it’s interesting to see someone recognise the change in reader dynamic.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-1/

[Kurt Busiek]

It is inclusive of the various interpretations of Conan, with its artistic nods and the reference to the Busiek/Ruth story.

In case what you're referring to there is the "Born on the Battlefield" moment, that's a reference to a Robert E. Howard line.

Greg and I expanded on it, but we rooted our stories of Conan's youth as much as possible in the hints and references Howard had made over the years.

[JKtheMac]

In case what you're referring to there is the "Born on the Battlefield" moment, that's a reference to a Robert E. Howard line.

Greg and I expanded on it, but we rooted our stories of Conan's youth as much as possible in the hints and references Howard had made over the years.

Indeed, however I suspect it is a nod to more than the single line. One of Howard’s great strengths was the way he sprinkled in evocative single references. He was clearly providing a sense that the world and history were biggger and more real but it also provides later writers like yourself with fertile ground. I strongly suspect that Aaron chose to reference this to make readers of non-Marvel material feel included and to reference your addition to the canon.

You can be as humble as you want, but the rest of us value your contribution to this and many other worlds and hold them close to our hearts.

I also believe there is a sly reference to the movies in there too, and of course there is the double page collage. All of these choices suggest to me a writer, artist and editor with huge afffection for the wider world of Conan.

[Prof. Warren]

Issue 2 was also a good read, though the witch and children from last issue barely play a role.
As in issue 1 Asrar‘s killing it on this title, love his energetic work.

Agreed. Another strong issue.

[Daniel22]

I would agree that traditional monthly comics are a hard sell to today’s youth. But I certainly don’t think pulp books or fiction is unattractive to younger readers.
One interesting attempt to pull in younger readers is currently being tried by Black Library whose worlds, whilst not as old, suffer from a similar problem to Conan. In that they have a dedicated readership who have grown up with the characters and worlds in them and are still buying them. Trying to satisfy both the older (more wealthy) and the younger (essential if you want a future). I haven’t really seen comics trying anything similar to this. But it’s interesting to see someone recognise the change in reader dynamic.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-1/

Thanks for the link! Marvel and DC do similar things. DC has new labels Ink and Zoom for kids and young adults and Marvel just launched a new line of kids books through IDW. I think Conan may be in a different boat imo because I doubt how attractive his entire genre is to kids. I don't know enough about Warhammer to say for sure, though. How do you think they compare? From what I know Warhammer is more military/sci fi... Having read both, how similar are they in tone and style?

[MRP]

Thanks for the link! Marvel and DC do similar things. DC has new labels Ink and Zoom for kids and young adults and Marvel just launched a new line of kids books through IDW. I think Conan may be in a different boat imo because I doubt how attractive his entire genre is to kids. I don't know enough about Warhammer to say for sure, though. How do you think they compare? From what I know Warhammer is more military/sci fi... Having read both, how similar are they in tone and style?

Are you talking Warhammer or Warhammer 40K. Warhammer is traditional fantasy 40K is the military sci-fi. Both by Games Workshop and using some commonalities but 2 different genres.

As for fantasy/sword & sorcery for kids, D&D is more popular than ever (thanks in part to Stranger Things) and is essentially fusion of S&S and more traditional high fantasy, and WotC/Hasbro is targeting kids with a lot of the new products such as these...



that I got my wife for Christmas (she loves D&D and children's book, so this was a no-brainer to get her). Fantasy is actually a hot genre among young reader (Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, et. al) and they've attempted to sell Conan to a kids market before with the Conan the Adventurer cartoon...



which was syndicated back in the 90s and lasted 2 seasons spawning a toy line as well. Whether it would work now, is debatable, and it certainly wouldn't be a fully Howardian interpretation. However, if they were to market Conan to a younger audience, illustrated chapter books rather than comics would be the way to go, an especially not as a monthly periodical comic. The chapter books could be young adult versions of the Howard short stories or new pastiches, but either way would do more to bring younger readers to the property than any type of new periodical comic would.

The thing to always remember regarding Conan now though is that Paradox, the owners of the Conan rights are obsessed with one goal, making more Conan movies, especially another Arnie movie and that is the only version they really care about. Knowing them, the move of the license to Marvel is more about wooing Marvel Studios to be interested in the Conan feature film than about anything else. They would license off anything else for pennies on the dollar if it meant they could get their movie made, and it's been that kind of thinking that has defined their stewardship of the Howard properties since htey acquired them.

-M

[Daniel22]

Are you talking Warhammer or Warhammer 40K. Warhammer is traditional fantasy 40K is the military sci-fi. Both by Games Workshop and using some commonalities but 2 different genres.

As for fantasy/sword & sorcery for kids, D&D is more popular than ever (thanks in part to Stranger Things) and is essentially fusion of S&S and more traditional high fantasy, and WotC/Hasbro is targeting kids with a lot of the new products such as these...



that I got my wife for Christmas (she loves D&D and children's book, so this was a no-brainer to get her). Fantasy is actually a hot genre among young reader (Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, et. al) and they've attempted to sell Conan to a kids market before with the Conan the Adventurer cartoon...



which was syndicated back in the 90s and lasted 2 seasons spawning a toy line as well. Whether it would work now, is debatable, and it certainly wouldn't be a fully Howardian interpretation. However, if they were to market Conan to a younger audience, illustrated chapter books rather than comics would be the way to go, an especially not as a monthly periodical comic. The chapter books could be young adult versions of the Howard short stories or new pastiches, but either way would do more to bring younger readers to the property than any type of new periodical comic would.

The thing to always remember regarding Conan now though is that Paradox, the owners of the Conan rights are obsessed with one goal, making more Conan movies, especially another Arnie movie and that is the only version they really care about. Knowing them, the move of the license to Marvel is more about wooing Marvel Studios to be interested in the Conan feature film than about anything else. They would license off anything else for pennies on the dollar if it meant they could get their movie made, and it's been that kind of thinking that has defined their stewardship of the Howard properties since htey acquired them.

-M

Honestly, I have no idea which Warhammer we were talking about! I know very little about the property. Thanks for the info, I'm going to read up on it. There's an online game that gets really good word of mouth I've been meaning to try too.

After thinking about it, I think my doubts are almost totally about Conan's very specific genre trappings. We've seen tons of examples of Teen/Kid/Young versions of characters working and I think most properties can work if given the kid friendly makeover. In Conan's case so much would have to change that I think the end result would barely be Conan anymore, though. The kids (and adult) fantasy genre is certainly alive and well across all mediums, but I think Conan is very different animal. He's a little fantasy, a lot of sword and sorcery and medieval style action. I don't see a lot of common ground between Conan and Harry Potter or Amulet or Avatar besides being categorized under the general fantasy umbrella. The biggest things that make Conan different (and a harder sell) are his lack of a large recurring supporting cast, no "fated" love interest as the endgame and his relatively stoic and unchanging character.

I've definitely seen a renewed interest in D&D among kids recently. I've seen even more of an interest from parents who are looking to unplug their kids for a while and find something for them to do in the real world. It seems there's a pretty large portion of parents who are desperate to curb the online addiction of their kids and they are looking towards D&D and Magic as a way for them to interact with actual living humans in real life. It's a tough sell but I think it's a great idea.

You're right about the movie situation and I hope it works to my benefit. Much more than a movie or TV show or even comics I want a line of prose Conan books. A line like the old Tor books with a cast of four or five different writers is my best case scenario. Here's hoping that Paradox sells the book rights soon if they haven't already.

[MRP]

Honestly, I have no idea which Warhammer we were talking about! I know very little about the property. Thanks for the info, I'm going to read up on it. There's an online game that gets really good word of mouth I've been meaning to try too.

After thinking about it, I think my doubts are almost totally about Conan's very specific genre trappings. We've seen tons of examples of Teen/Kid/Young versions of characters working and I think most properties can work if given the kid friendly makeover. In Conan's case so much would have to change that I think the end result would barely be Conan anymore, though. The kids (and adult) fantasy genre is certainly alive and well across all mediums, but I think Conan is very different animal. He's a little fantasy, a lot of sword and sorcery and medieval style action. I don't see a lot of common ground between Conan and Harry Potter or Amulet or Avatar besides being categorized under the general fantasy umbrella. The biggest things that make Conan different (and a harder sell) are his lack of a large recurring supporting cast, no "fated" love interest as the endgame and his relatively stoic and unchanging character.

I've definitely seen a renewed interest in D&D among kids recently. I've seen even more of an interest from parents who are looking to unplug their kids for a while and find something for them to do in the real world. It seems there's a pretty large portion of parents who are desperate to curb the online addiction of their kids and they are looking towards D&D and Magic as a way for them to interact with actual living humans in real life. It's a tough sell but I think it's a great idea.

You're right about the movie situation and I hope it works to my benefit. Much more than a movie or TV show or even comics I want a line of prose Conan books. A line like the old Tor books with a cast of four or five different writers is my best case scenario. Here's hoping that Paradox sells the book rights soon if they haven't already.

I think (but aren't certain) that Siege Perilous (the publishers behind the prose chapters in Conan the Barbarian and Savage Sword) have plans for a line of Conan prose novels. They look like a new start up or at least a fairly recent company, but have some lines out there. I poked around their website a bit (the link was with the chapter in the back of Marvel's Conan books), and they are at least planning on reissues of a couple of the books and putting out the novellas being serialized in the comics. Not sure how extensive their Conan offerings will be, but it looks like they have a couple of core writers that will be the driving force of the line.

As to the Warhammer stuff, there are also Warhammer (40K?) comics (currently from Titan but I think the license is changing hands in 2019) and there is a comic connection as a large number of the 40K novels are written by comic veteran Dan Abnett.

-M

[Knockagh]

Thanks for the link! Marvel and DC do similar things. DC has new labels Ink and Zoom for kids and young adults and Marvel just launched a new line of kids books through IDW. I think Conan may be in a different boat imo because I doubt how attractive his entire genre is to kids. I don't know enough about Warhammer to say for sure, though. How do you think they compare? From what I know Warhammer is more military/sci fi... Having read both, how similar are they in tone and style?

I wrote a massive response to this and it disappeared with an a stray finger swipe. I’m a massive fan of the Warhammer worlds especially their publishing arm Black Library (https://www.blacklibrary.com). Anyway Warhammer the fantasy side doesn’t really exist anymore they literally blew the world up and repackaged it in a very high fantasy package called Age of Sigmar. The old world had more in common with Conan and Howard’s world but the links to traditional sword and sorcery remain. More recent works by Nick Horth and others have returned the world to slightly less high fantasy.
I get why people refer to Warhammer 40k as military sci fi but that’s a poor description of it. It’s really space fantasy, it has little in common with futuristic sci fi. It’s dystopian, dark and bloody. It’s superb.
Leaving aside the overt fantasy similarities Warhammer and Conan have multiple authors playing around in their world. Both have a superbly built world with a strong history. Warhammer much more so the level of depth they have gone into in the last 10 years is simply staggering. But Howard world has a strong if slightly less cohesive legacy.
Warhammer have been cleverly trying to reach into different audiences recently not only through the youth ‘Warhammer Adventures’ but ‘Warhammer Horror’ is also starting this year to appeal to horror fan i suppose!
Dan Abnett does indeed write for Black Library, solely within the 40k universe, he is given legendary status amoung the fans, as he has delivered some of its most important works. Horus Rising and the original Eisenhorn trilogy are stunning works.

[Daniel22]

I think (but aren't certain) that Siege Perilous (the publishers behind the prose chapters in Conan the Barbarian and Savage Sword) have plans for a line of Conan prose novels. They look like a new start up or at least a fairly recent company, but have some lines out there. I poked around their website a bit (the link was with the chapter in the back of Marvel's Conan books), and they are at least planning on reissues of a couple of the books and putting out the novellas being serialized in the comics. Not sure how extensive their Conan offerings will be, but it looks like they have a couple of core writers that will be the driving force of the line.

As to the Warhammer stuff, there are also Warhammer (40K?) comics (currently from Titan but I think the license is changing hands in 2019) and there is a comic connection as a large number of the 40K novels are written by comic veteran Dan Abnett.

-M

-M

Thanks for the info. Here's hoping they put out a pretty large line of prose books with a wide range of authors.
I haven't read any of Abnett's prose stuff. I like his older Marvel and DC comics but I really haven't been a fan in recent years. If I do read some Warhammer stuff I'll start with him.