Who is the superior telepath: Emma or Non-PF Jean Grey

[rutog98]

The thing is that asking for a basic power set Jean is not really possible. Like Emma herself said Jean is the Phoenix even when the Phoenix is not her.

You are taking stuff out of context. Jean Grey is not the spark that ignited creation, the PF is. Jean is just a mutant in her 20s. The Phoenix Force is old as creation.

[Omegarogue]

Kid Omega and Rachel are more powerful than Emma, it was said specifically, in fact Emma was the one who said that Rachel is more powerful than her.

De Jean has always been more powerful than Emma, with or without the PF, the funniest thing is that recently they had a confrontation between Teen Jean and Emma in XMBlue, and Emma was overcome and humiliated.

And with that there is no discussion, if Teen Jean is more powerful and is superior to Emma, Jean adult, much more.

[Wiccan]

That was not an alternate reality Jean or a time displaced Jean we saw in Endsong. That Jean was dead and in the ground, then she came up and pulled the PF out of Emma. She even told the PF, "You are me." In other words, Jean was still connected to the WHR, otherwise, she would not have been able to say that. Jean and the PF are only one when the PF is bonded to her. When Jean went to her death at the end of the Morrison run, she went into the White Hot Room and her body was buried in the ground. So, using the power of the PF in the WHR, that's the only way she could have temporarily risen and said what she said as she pulled the PF out of Emma.

Regarding Jean's persona controlling the power of the PF, the PF's powers were cut back to Xavier-power levels after she healed the M'Kraan crystal. She was not wielding that huge cosmic power again until around the time she went Dark Phoenix. Mastermind's and Emma's mind games unlocked that power once more.

I never said she was an Alt Jean. But Here Comes Tomorrow Jean is Jean after she's reborn from a Phoenix egg. After she pushed Scemma together, that future got erased, and so the Jean from Endsong is only the same as the one who died on New X-Men 150. There's no such thing as "connected to the WHR" as a power boost. The White Hot Room is just a place, where dead Phoenix hosts go. With some exceptions, like Jean's parents, that are clearly not Phoenix powered or anything lol.

"Regarding Jean's persona controlling the power of the PF, the PF's powers were cut back to Xavier-power levels after she healed the M'Kraan crystal. She was not wielding that huge cosmic power again until around the time she went Dark Phoenix. Mastermind's and Emma's mind games unlocked that power once more."

I'm not sure if that's true, but taking your word for it, she was still in control from issues 101-108(and a bunch of Classic X-Men and Uncanny First Class backstories) and Morrison's New X-Men, while Emma had trouble on both times it went to her.

Here are the scans from Endsong:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/fSbI36GinX0...YL3OwLjU=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/1LsTUeouioK...AxpAZUBn=s1600

The Phoenix Force asked Jean how she could resurrect herself and everything without its powers. Jean's response, "I am you, don't you remember?"
So, she did used the PF to resurrect herself and do everything she did.

So, it looks like the Phoenix Force was scattered to bits and thus lost part of its memory.

Also, notice how Jeans tells it to come back into the White Hot Room with her.

Edit: This also shows that a part of Jean was still in the WHR and it was merely a piece of Jean we saw in these scans. This is why she tells the PF to come back with her to the WHR where all of their pieces will once again be whole. So, while still connected to the WHR, she's bonded to the PF.

The Phoenix had already resurrected Jean though. In issue one she goes to her grave and brings her body back. Jean is talking about the Phoenix's force pieces, not hers. As you said the Phoenix force was all divided in fragments on that story. The reason she says that the Phoenix is her on that scene is probably because that was the part of the Phoenix that bonded with her. Not because she only had a piece on the original story, but because now the Phoenix was scattered. That's why the Phoenix acts all in love with Scott to the point where she goes to Emma's body now that he's in love with her.

If you're right about Jean being Phoenix though(hypothetically speaking, I still don't think that's the case), then it would be a fair fight.

[Omegarogue]

The original Dark Phoenix saga was written as just Jean amped up to her full potential. The retcon of the Phoenix Force didn't come for 5 or 6 years later.

Jean is stronger than Emma. Always has been, always will be.

Completely agree, hell, until baby Jean and surpassed Emma today, I can not imagine the adult.

And with that there is no discussion, I think it is the best thing that X-Men Blue demonstrated the superiority of Jean to Emma, even a teenage version of Jean that is much weaker than the adult.

[rutog98]

I never said she was an Alt Jean. But Here Comes Tomorrow Jean is Jean after she's reborn from a Phoenix egg. After she pushed Scemma together, that future got erased, and so the Jean from Endsong is only the same as the one who died on New X-Men 150. There's no such thing as "connected to the WHR" as a power boost. The White Hot Room is just a place, where dead Phoenix hosts go. With some exceptions, like Jean's parents, that are clearly not Phoenix powered or anything lol.

"Regarding Jean's persona controlling the power of the PF, the PF's powers were cut back to Xavier-power levels after she healed the M'Kraan crystal. She was not wielding that huge cosmic power again until around the time she went Dark Phoenix. Mastermind's and Emma's mind games unlocked that power once more."

I'm not sure if that's true, but taking your word for it, she was still in control from issues 101-108(and a bunch of Classic X-Men and Uncanny First Class backstories) and Morrison's New X-Men, while Emma had trouble on both times it went to her.



The Phoenix had already resurrected Jean though. In issue one she goes to her grave and brings her body back. Jean is talking about the Phoenix's force pieces, not hers. As you said the Phoenix force was all divided in fragments on that story. The reason she says that the Phoenix is her on that scene is probably because that was the part of the Phoenix that bonded with her. Not because she only had a piece on the original story, but because now the Phoenix was scattered. That's why the Phoenix acts all in love with Scott to the point where she goes to Emma's body now that he's in love with her.

If you're right about Jean being Phoenix though(hypothetically speaking, I still don't think that's the case), then it would be a fair fight.

Whatever that "Jean" was in "Endsong", it was connected to the PF. That much is clear from what she said. "I am you, don't you remember?" That was her response when the PF asked how she could do all of that without its power.

[rutog98]

Kid Omega and Rachel are more powerful than Emma, it was said specifically, in fact Emma was the one who said that Rachel is more powerful than her.

De Jean has always been more powerful than Emma, with or without the PF, the funniest thing is that recently they had a confrontation between Teen Jean and Emma in XMBlue, and Emma was overcome and humiliated.

And with that there is no discussion, if Teen Jean is more powerful and is superior to Emma, Jean adult, much more.

Its just rhetoric. Martha beat Rachel. Selene beat Rachel three times until Rachel got the PF boosting her. Emma beat Rachel. Exodus beat Rachel while Rachel was aided by a bunch of X-Men while Emma was able to counter Exodus twice all by herself. There was a dinosaur telepath that also bested Rachel (I'll admit that he did catch her by surprise, however). Rachel is nobody worth mentioning.

This thread is proving that non-PF Jean Grey is far Far FAR below Emma Frost in power, which I always knew she was. All of this business about who so-and-so says is more powerful than whom doesn't amount to a hill of beans if the feats show something completely the opposite.

[Omegarogue]

The Phoenix Force doesn’t boost her powers until Logan kills her. It is clearly stated in New X-Men that it is Jean’s own potential. They talk about her terrible powers. Not Phoenix’s. But Jean’s. I know that you are not a fan of Jean, so its is hard for you to see that. But it is there in Morrison’s own writing.

I love both Jean and Emma. They are both incredibly powerful. Both are Omega with great potential. But it is there in writing that Jean is more powerful. And Emma is more ruthless.

And if this was a poll, Jean would have won. More people have called Jean the most powerful one. I know that won’t make you change your mind, but I just wanted to point that out. :-)

Bounding something Emma is an omega telepath, but not a mutant omega level, as if they are Jean and Rachel.

In the career of Morrison Jean was not powered by the Phoenix until he had to die at the hands of Logan, and before this and Jean had been far superior to Emma.

But as I said, we currently have an Emma that is overshadowed and humiliated, by a teen Jean without the PF, and much less powerful than the adult Jean.

Since there is no possible discussion, the creator of the thread believes that Emma is more powerful, it does not matter that the marvel events and even Emma herself tell him otherwise, it is like arguing alone lol.

The funny thing is that it dodges very conveniently that Emma was overtaken by Jean recently in blue, and it was her teenage version and without the pF, there are plenty of words.

[yogaflame]

Its just rhetoric. Martha beat Rachel. Selene beat Rachel three times until Rachel got the PF boosting her. Emma beat Rachel.

War Machine and Valkyrie have both beaten Storm. Does that mean they are more powerful than her? Fights are one thing, power is another.

[Wiccan]

Whatever that "Jean" was in "Endsong", it was connected to the PF. That much is clear from what she said. "I am you, don't you remember?" That was her response when the PF asked how she could do all of that without its power.

You're taking everything out of context to fit your narrative. Jean's "I Am you, remember?" has nothing to do with her still being using the Phoenix force. She's talking about how the Phoenix (on that story) has her feelings and emotions, as the Phoenix explains on the next pages. Jean says we/our/etc because she's talking about the Phoenix and her as one, like it is when she's a Phoenix host, which is what happens at the end of the story as they go away. But she does mention that as what's happening next. "But afterwards, in the White Hot Room" aka not right now, out of the WHR. She's convincing the Phoenix to go back to her and leave Emma alone.

[Bart]

How is this even a question?

Emma admits herself that Jean is the most gifted psychic she has ever seen and every time they're in the same book Jean is clearly superior one. Emma got trapped by the Cassandra gargoyles and had to be rescued by Jean.


1) Jean without the phoenix beats an Emma with the phoenix:


2) Jean is the first of 2 confirmed Omegas even without accessing her phoenix potential.

3) An older teen Jean(Xorna) easily beat Emma and the Cuckoos while Emma had a shard of the phoenix during Bota. And the younger teen Jean beat Xorna.

4) She was stated to have infinite mental powers even before accessing her Phoenix potential and got through Juggernaut's mystical defenses early on in her career
:


5) Jean instinctively was able to transfer her entire mind into Emma's body, while Emma needed a machine to do the same with Storm and a Shiar power spike to do the same with Iceman.

[rutog98]

Bounding something Emma is an omega telepath, but not a mutant omega level, as if they are Jean and Rachel.

In the career of Morrison Jean was not powered by the Phoenix until he had to die at the hands of Logan, and before this and Jean had been far superior to Emma.

But as I said, we currently have an Emma that is overshadowed and humiliated, by a teen Jean without the PF, and much less powerful than the adult Jean.

Since there is no possible discussion, the creator of the thread believes that Emma is more powerful, it does not matter that the marvel events and even Emma herself tell him otherwise, it is like arguing alone lol.

The funny thing is that it dodges very conveniently that Emma was overtaken by Jean recently in blue, and it was her teenage version and without the pF, there are plenty of words.

A claim that has been debunked by multiple posters in this thread plus an interview by the writer himself. Now that Exodus Cloak brought up the Wizard article, I recall it now. It was the "Wizard X-Men Special" for that year. Wizard used to do one such issue annually for the X-titles. The issue covered all of the stuff going on in every x-title at the time. I recall in that issue where they even had a mock battle between Emma and Jean and Emma was winning up until the PF powered up an attack from Jean which defeated Emma. IIRC, Emma was clearly stated to be stronger than non-PF Jean Grey. It clearly stated that the cosmic entity was circling around Jean or something like that.

Also, I don't read the Jean-solo title, so I don't know what happened there, so I can't judge that. However, I do know that adult Jean Grey without the PF is FAR below Emma.

[Wiccan]

Emma admits herself that Jean is the most gifted psychic she has ever seen.

1) Jean without the phoenix beats an Emma with the phoenix:



2) Jean is the first of 2 confirmed Omegas even without accessing her phoenix potential.

3) An older teen Jean(Xorna) easily beat Emma and the Cuckoos while Emma had a shard of the phoenix during Bota. And the younger teen Jean beat Xorna.

4) She was stated to have infinite mental powers even before accessing her Phoenix potential and got through Juggernaut's mystical defenses early on in her career
:

5) Jean instinctively was able to transfer her entire mind into Emma's body, while Emma needed a machine to do the same with Storm and a Shiar power spike to do the same with Iceman.

Pics aren't working, for me at least...

[DarkMagnus]

Skilled and powerful are two different things.

Emma is skilled to Jean power

If Emma make a sneak attack she can win over Jean. in a direct match nope.

[rutog98]

How is this even a question?

Emma admits herself that Jean is the most gifted psychic she has ever seen and every time they're in the same book Jean is clearly superior one. Emma got trapped by the Cassandra gargoyles and had to be rescued by Jean.


1) Jean without the phoenix beats an Emma with the phoenix:


2) Jean is the first of 2 confirmed Omegas even without accessing her phoenix potential.

3) An older teen Jean(Xorna) easily beat Emma and the Cuckoos while Emma had a shard of the phoenix during Bota. And the younger teen Jean beat Xorna.

4) She was stated to have infinite mental powers even before accessing her Phoenix potential and got through Juggernaut's mystical defenses early on in her career
:


5) Jean instinctively was able to transfer her entire mind into Emma's body, while Emma needed a machine to do the same with Storm and a Shiar power spike to do the same with Iceman.

That bit about infinite mental powers was hyperbole in that scan, lol!

Regarding beating Jean with the Phoenix, you need to read that scan more carefully as well as the following page. I have already explained it.

I don't care about so and so calling Jean the most gifted psychic they have ever seen, Jean doesn't have the feats to compete with Emma.

[Bart]

It's now the potential to wield the Phoenix Force it's not an internal aspect of her power but an external boost..

On paper Emma has better telepathic feats. Even if some writers go either way or say they're equal or say Jeans more power or vice versa. The Exodus feat is a good barometer

Exodus is not a good barometer, because both times Jean faced him she had not begun pushing the limits of her powers yet and was still holding back.